The message from China seems to be, “Forget the coal seam gas, just give us the coal!”
Clive Palmer’s $70 billion deal with supply coal for 20 years to China Power International Development is a massive boost for the Australian resources sector.
If it ever comes to fruition.
Look, it wouldn’t be the first time a multi-billionaire deal was announced with a fanfare of trumpets only to quietly fade away as the proposed deal never gets off the ground.
However, the thing in its favour is that it’s a simple buy and sell arrangement. We’re not talking about complicated foreign ownership deals that need approval from shareholders and the Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB).
But as we’re writing in the February issue of Australian Wealth Gameplan today:
“Based on the news over the weekend with Clive Palmer’s $70 billion deal to sell coal to the Chinese, it looks as though the Chinese economy remains Australia’s get-out-of-jail free card – for now.”
The Australian economy is first and foremost a resources economy. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but what I’m trying to say is that all these pretensions to Australia being a centre for financial markets or a breeding ground for new technology is just wishful thinking.
The beginning, middle and end to the Australian economy is resources.
And it’s that which is keeping the economy afloat, most certainly not the “robust” Australian financial system.
But aside from that, this deal by Clive Palmer shows how business enterprise and markets work when government interference is either non-existent or at a minimum.
Again for Australian Wealth Gameplan this month we’ve written about the debacle around the ‘Green Loans’ scheme. This was a half-baked idea by the federal government to fund 360,000 assessments on how homes could be made more ‘green.’
The upshot is there has been an overload of assessors paying up to $2,000 to become accredited to carry out these assessments.
While that doesn’t sound bad, the point is that they are now over 4,000 assessors to do assessments on just 360,000 homes – or, 90 homes each. At $200 a pop that’s a total income of just $18,000.
Furthermore, the scheme had envisaged that up to 70,000 households would then apply for a $10,000 interest free Green Loan to carry out the recommendations in the assessment.
So far, only 1,000 people have bothered to do so, even though more than 200,000 assessment have already been carried out. The scheme has already cost taxpayers $72 million. All of it a monumental waste.
But it’s a perfect example of how the public sector ‘creates’ 4,000 unproductive and useless jobs all paid for by the taxpayer, whereas Clive Palmer, in search of a profit is investing millions and billions of dollars of private money to potentially create 6,000 jobs in the near term.
The coercive sector (public sector) sucks resources away from the private sector and costs the taxpayer money. In contrast the private sector takes risks and creates genuine jobs.
But I thought this example of the private sector doing good and the coercive sector doing evil was a good follow on to last Friday’s Money Morning where we looked at how government has a disastrous impact on an economy.
We used the example of the government making it illegal for a young lad to work one-and-a-half hours after school at his local hardware store.
It wasn’t that there was an exploitative evil capitalist rubbing his hands and cackling, having ruthlessly cajoled the youngster into working just 90 minutes a day.
No, the fact was that the young lad could only get there by 4pm after school each day and that the store closed at 5.30pm. Hence a 90-minute shift.
But we were quite surprised to read a number of emails into the Money Morning mailbag that followed the same line as this email from one reader:
“I’m sorry, I totally disagree with your opinion of the poor student who only wants to work an hour or two a day. Forget about him, the reason for a minimum amount of hours a worker gets paid is so the worker doesn’t spend more money going to work than what they will get paid. You might think that the worker has the choice on whether they choose to work or not; but if there wasn’t a minimum amount of hours clause, people would be worse off.”
“Forget about him” – It may have been a throwaway line from the reader but it’s typical of the attitude of many that the sacrifice of a few individuals is fine because it’s in the greater public good.
Of course that’s nonsense. The beauty of capitalism and individualism is that the actions of individuals who act for their own benefit have a knock-on effect to the rest of society.
Think about it, a person doesn’t necessarily work in a supermarket because they believe in helping their fellow human to buy groceries. They work in the supermarket so they can get paid. But that ’selfish’ action enables the supermarket to open its doors and therefore admit shoppers who can buy groceries.
If those ’selfish’ individuals did not act in such a way, then people would have to farm, forage and hunt for their food.
But apart from that, there’s a common misconception that working people are so dumb that they’ll work even though it costs them more to work than the wages they earn.
We never cease to be amazed at the patronising tone from those that have a so-called ’social conscience,’ that they believe the working class are idiots who need to be protected by the nanny state.
I’m sorry but that just doesn’t wash.
The fact is, if it is uneconomical for someone to work then they won’t work. The number of people on government benefits confirms that’s true. If people really were dumb then surely an evil capitalist would be able to convince people to forgo government benefits and instead work for them for less.
So this idea that someone will continue working when it costs them more in travel costs than they earn in wages just isn’t true. Sure, that could happen for a short time until they work out it just isn’t worth it, but soon enough they’ll figure it out and they’ll leave the job.
In fact your editor can remember a stint we had as a pizza delivery driver in our young school days. The pizza shop paid us one pound per delivery. At the time we were happy to accept that.
However, it didn’t take us more than a couple of weeks to figure out that the fuel costs of our petrol guzzling 1977 Mini 750 was more than the money we made as a pizza delivery driver. So we gave up the gig and got a job in a pub instead!
And that’s exactly where the idea of evil exploitative employers just doesn’t make sense.
Because we can also assume the employer isn’t dumb either. If new employees are constantly leaving because it costs them too much to get to work, the employer is going to have to fix things or else eventually go out of business.
Considering even the most basic of jobs can take weeks for an employee to get the full grasp of it and reach their most productive point, it’s important that the employer understand the costs faced by employees of getting to work.
The employer surely doesn’t really want to have to constantly train new staff.
I mean, if it really was to the advantage of an employer to only give people 1 hour shifts per day then why don’t all employers offer this to all staff as the starting point in negotiations? If this is the most profitable arrangement for an employer then offering 40 hour weeks must be the most unprofitable.
If that was the case surely the power of these evil capitalists would have ensured everyone worked minimal hours. And you can’t say “well, the government has prevented that,” because it hasn’t. The minimum shift is three hours so why don’t all employers force employees to only work for the minimum shift?
The obvious answer is that in most cases it isn’t advantageous for an employer to have eight different staff members each working a one hour shift when one staff member can do more work during a single eight hour shift.
The second reason is that it’s not agreeable to most employees to work short shifts because of the fixed costs of travelling to and from work.
In order for the employer to attract and keep workers they know they have to offer longer shifts.
Of course, there are always exceptions to that. Workers that live close to the place of work are more likely to accept shorter shifts as their cost of travel – maybe they can walk or ride a bike to work – is less than those who use public transport or drive.
But if an employer insists on just offering short shifts then he or she is naturally limiting the pool of potential workers to just those in the immediate area. If that strategy works and the employer can fill the vacancies with local workers who are happy to work short shifts who has lost out?
Have these workers been exploited to their detriment? Are they being enslaved by the employer?
From what we can see, the only ones to miss out are those that live further away and who would prefer longer hours. But as with anything, ‘them’s the breaks.’
On the reverse side, if the employer only offers longer shifts, or is forced to by the government, then those that live closer and who only want short shifts will lose out.
And because they may not be able to travel further for work because they can’t drive or don’t have access to public transport or need to pick the kids up from school, then ultimately it is those workers that suffer most from minimum hour and minimum wage legislation.
It’s a fact and not a theory that minimum wage and its sibling, minimum shift legislation not only destroys jobs, but it will always destroy the employment opportunities of those that the ’socially conscious’ claim to represent.
Cheers.
Kris.
{ 110 comments… read them below or add one }
The thing is, we live in a democracy and not a republic. Individual rights are held above the masses in a republic (from what I’ve gleaned) whereas the rights of an individual can be bypassed if the ‘greater good’ in a “democracy” wants it. That’s where the “forget about him” attitude comes from, and its both sad and pathetic.
Ah, I was meaning to post it here, apologies for the duplication:
Sorry for potentially overdosing on climate madness, but I thought you might want to read this for light relief. It is a hoot.
Apparently, Tim Lambert has accepted Lord Monckton’s challenge for Australian warmists to show their faces by fronting him in a public debate. One of the readers apparently posted this on Lambert’s blog:
“This will be a turkey shoot. I almost feel sorry for you Tim. (No, not really). Still, you can always come back here, lick your wounds, and explain how you would have won if only it was a fair contest. You know, if you hadn’t taken a knife to a gunfight!”
As reported by http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/
Without a minimum wage there would be no economy- there would be the haves at the top- but all of those businesses that cater to the disposable income of the lower middle and working classes- bye bye. Walmart in the US has recently had to raise its hourly wage- once it worked out that its own workers COULD NOT afford to shop there. And as for businesses learning the hiring lesson quickly! ha. I worked for a company that offered one of the lowest inbound call centre wages in the city, and was reduced to recruiting people from the local petrol stations and the like (yes really) It took several client complaints before that policy was reversed to offer higher wages in the contact centre, and it lasted as long as it took to hire enough people to populate the call centre once. An awful lot of businesses look at the wage alone, without taking into account the skills and training they lose.
I agree, k. You gut Jo & Joe Averidge of their diposable income by cutting their wages and you kill half or worse of the economy. But we don’t have to go far to see what free marketeerism achieves. Wall Street’s gangster bankers have had all their wishes fulfilled with regard to the abolishment of regulation that they complained was against efficiency and the spirit of a free market. Where did that get us? It is not the rate of employment, but the earning power of the average worker that is/should be the fundamental determinant of what is a healthy economy, not to mention a healthy society.
But taking such considerations part of the equasion, and the already evident of empoverishment of the developed world through the free marketeering of capital movements and that of the labour market, is probably way over the head of the editor.
k – I agree. I’m all for paying incentives to more efficient workers but at the entry level I am in favour of a base wage. We have had that for many years and talk of doing away with it is fantasy at best.
Do you own a residential or an industrial property? Then you might be interested in this green tax:
http://www.news.com.au/money/governments-switched-on-energy-move/story-e6frfmci-1225827485299
And I should add, if this is the sort of employment the new green economy is going to keep generating, then we are doomed. You could hardly find a better example of capitalism eating itself to death.
I should clarify, I don’t just mean capitalism gorging itslef to death, but eating itself up in the process. Or should we call this bureaucracy gone mad? Creating jobs for Paul by robbing Peter in the process?
Well, on another front, judging by tonight’s headline news in MSM, it seems that the war rhetoric is now daily being escalated. Even Germany is warning that Iran’s time is running out, and Rober Gates says that if Iran agrees to their demands then there is still time for a negotiated resolution. Another war, another lot of misery, another round of death, destruction, impoverishment, and misery. When will this outrage end?
Today on the news, there was talk of unions trying to negotiate a higher minimum wage. Is it not high enough as it is already? If we keep putting up the minimum wages, the cost of making anything in Aus is going to go up. More than half the goods on the shelves in Coles/ Woolies and Kmart is not made here! Whose economy are we supporting anyway?
Not only that we cannot compete in household goods, all export products including coal, wheat, iron ore, uranium, pumps, cars… are heading down the same path as our production costs escalate.
OK, Kris I belive I have well and truly proved my point that the free market will not pay fair wages. Previous examples I have given are fruit pickers, taxi drivers, the children working on Commonwealth Games sites all of which you have failed to talk about.
I will add another example and it fits in with your rants about Government inefficiency (which I agree with).
Let’s take the insulation rebate. The most ballsed up scheme I have never seen. All of them are claiming the full $1200 by the way but we have been literally inundated with foreign students trying to “sell” this to us and no doubt to everyone around us. Guess what? All on commission! They can send these foreign students around as the “employer” carries no risk despite the fact the area has been canvassed previous, the student does. Free market at work.
Ah, Kevin B, past experience shows that Sayce consistently ignores such inconvenient truths that do not accord with his preferred conclusions.
Incidentally, I have been watching Q and A on the ABC. Rudd has been fronting an exclusively young audience and these are my impressions from the questions and comments put to him during that session:
1. Young people are very much interested in climate science, the proposed ETS, and the implications from what has been revealed through Climategate.
2. His audience by and large did not buy his lies about the science being settled. In fact, there was hardly an approving question or comment put to him on the subject.
3. It seemed to me that these young people were quite well informed that there are serious question marks both about the science and the proposed ETS.
4. It also seems clear to me that Rudd is totally misreading the mood of the nation, which is changing very, very fast. It looks like he will be dumb enough to go down with it. With some luck, he will.
Not only is it futile to continue the chatter about Australia’s tweedledum and tweedledee political parties, the only “luck” either of them is likely to bring us is if neither is elected. Despite the temporary feeling of optimism that a different government might bring us, a little more experience will show that a new government is little different from its predecessor on any matters of importance.
update on the “secret meeting in Sydney”
http://www.smh.com.au/business/treat-for-elite-as-reserve-bank-celebrates-20100208-nnc5.html
CB @ 9
Iran now want to go ahead with enriching it’s own uranium to levels which are far above those required for ‘peaceful needs’…
This can only mean one thing.
I think that America has been more than patient with Iran and it’s time to take action.
Ahmadinejad is a nutcase who should be removed from power. If they want war, then hopefully the yanks will do a good job this time!!
CB @ 11:
Speaking of Rudd and climategate, I was listening to ABC radio yesterday and heard a “speech” by a South Australian Labor senator (cant remember her name) …
All the usual retoric was there about the “science” being settled and firmly behind the ETS and that everybody in the developed world is having an ETS introduced, etc..
I’ve never heard such a load of cr@p in my entire life! She went on to cite “proof” of global warming … the melting of the glaciers in the Himalayas, melting of Antarctica, global temperatures rising etc etc – ALL of which has since been revealed to be LIES and UNTRUTHS!
What does one need to remain/become a Labor supporter nowdays? A LOBOTOMY??? Dont these halfwits ever read or keep up with current events or do any of their own research??
Pathetic…
@ Sandra #14
I can’t even begin to describe the problems in your post. Have you learnt nothing from events in that region in the past decade? You actually believe the US is in over there to “fix” things? Who are the real nutcases?
The most baffling thing though is that you are constantly on here bashing the MSM and yet you do not question this particular tale.
You honestly need to wake up. Read more. I recommend Robert Fisk:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/
Dave @ 13, sadly, that is very likely to be true. We are not looking at two different animals here, but a two-headed beast.
Sandra – Remember Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction? How about the wild goose chanse they called Catching Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Ahmadinejad is the new Bogey Man, so that they can secure Iranian oil for the West, and blocking access to it by China. Besides, Ahmadinejad is refuses to accept USD for its oil exports, and Iran is being paid instead in Euros. This is intolerable for US hegemony and they want to arrest the rot asap, plus tighten the noose around China.
Sandra, this is not about nuclear weapons. If they were serious about nuclear weapons, they would take Israel to task over its nuclear weapons. It is about bringing death and destruction to any nation that dear to stand in the way of the robber barrons of global financial capital.
Sandra, and one more consideration to the above: Whatever happened to national sovereignty? The right of a people to determine its own fate? Why should I be allowed to carry a gun for self protection, but not my neighbour? And who appointed the US to become the world’s policeman anyway?
CB -
be that as it may, if the stories are true about Iran pressing ahead with it’s own enriched uranium program, i for one certainly dont want a radical muslim government/leader with such capabilities.
I dont doubt what you say about the banksters being evil etc but that does not mean that I should be supportive of Ahmadinejad. I think he’s a nutcase who wouldnt hesitate to attack any part of the west he sees fit with a backpack nuke. I’m sure you wouldnt mind if that backpack nuke was let off in Wall Street ;p but seriously, this guy is a nutter and should be constrained before it’s too late.
I dont think his threat to “wipe Israel off the map” should be taken lightly… (along with all his other threats against the west).
CB @ 18:
Also , I dont believe that many would fear as Israel as an aggressor ito a nuclear attack on anybody…
The same can definately not be said about Iran.
Therefore I dont see how Israel having nuclear weapons is a related issue at all.
And this is not just a misguided crusade against Iran either. The US is going to much the same lengths to dissuade North Korea from obtaining nuclear weapons.
Sandra @ 16 – Yes, it is astonishing how they can pretend that they have all been caught with their pants down. These peple have no shame. Worse, they seem to believe that the rest of us are idiots and retards, and that any old lie they care to spew at us with the complicit and corrupted MSM will be swallowed by the populace. I wonder if it might have been the Chief Scientist you heard. Anyhow, she is a disgrace to her discipline. This is doing tremendous damage to the reputation of scientists and science as a trustworthy, non-partisan endeavour.
But, perhaps it is time, perhaps it will have some benefit. It might be time for us to grow a little more sceptical of this class of experts as well, as they have been increasingly used in corrupt enterprises, as in the pharmaceutical industry, so it may be that this global warming scandal will make us more weary overall of anything claimed to have been scientifically engineered or proven.
And finally, to round off my harangue, what about Rudd’s idiotic repetition of this phrase that 4000 scientists in white coats who only measure things stand behind the IPCC’s discredited reports? Isn’t that one a hoot?
He seems to miss the fact that Climategate and a growing list of other evidence shows that his corrupted white coated army has been fiddling the books, and torturing the numbers. They sure were doing far more than “just measuring things.” He has so much egg on his face already that it is a miracle that he can still open his eyes, and it is pathetic that he cannot even see it.
The emperor has no clothes, no doubt about it. But it seems that he has no brains, or decency, either.
Sandra, you are right. We do not have to fear Israel’s nuclear weapons – not for now, anyhow. They only really want to get rid of the palestinians, and who cares about them, anyhow?
As for Ahmadinejad, he is no more of a nutter than was Bush, Blair, or Howard. By threatening him and his country, the West is pushing him into being more and more difiant. They did the same with Saddam. This is the same game, and it will end the same way.
Anyhow, we need not worry too much over there. We have agreed to be enslaved through debt, so we need not fear their weapons. The bullets are reserved for those, like Ahmadinejad and his people, who refuse to allow being enslaved by the IBC’s debt pushing hitmen. I encourage you to watch videos on “Confessions of an economic hitman” by John Perkins, to get a broader view of what is happening here. This is the military wing of the same machine that is sucking us dry through unpayable debt. That’s my understanding, anyway.
CB @ 19:
Regarding who gives the US the right? lol – well the truth (fortunate or unfortunate – depending on where you stand) is that the US appointed itself … simply because it can!
One can (rightfully) argue that they are a big fat bully but if it were not for them we’d all (in Australia) be speaking Japanese now…
As for the merits of their case – well that’s debatable. If you’re an Israeli, chances are you’d see only merits to the US case, being surrounded by 500 million muslims who’d kill you and every other Israeli without blinking an eye if they had half a chance.
@cb #24
I did post a reply to Sandra along the same lines but it hasn’t yet been approved.
In any event, I totally agree with your post. They are all nutters. Although “doing an Iraq job” on Iran is easier said for them than done, otherwise it already would’ve happened. It could not be done without massive casualties and repercussions. It would most likely change the world as we know it.
@Sandra: Yes of course, only “they” are the agressors. Which country has Iran attacked and occupied? Palestine of course has not explicitly been threatened with being wiped off the map. That has already taken place and is in the now in the final stages.
Wake up.
Sandra, – Just a little detail on the Japanese question: If it weren’t for the US, Japan would not have been embargoed just prior to the Second World War, and starved of resources. No doubt it is a complicated topic, but arguably, Japan became desperate when its industrial development was threatened to be choked off by the embargoes on its importing capacity, so it lashed out against the US, and thus entered the war. China is now threatened the same way. Slowly, the US is encircling it and will cut off its energy supplies almost at will, as and when it so chooses. China’s only hope would be Russia to the North, but who knows how Russia is going to be dealth with. If Russia can be bribed or threatened, then China will be standing alone, as Japan did. History sure rhymes. Read up on the subject of Japan if you have the inclination or the time, and I would be interested to know if your perspective might change as to what is happening right now in Iran.
There is always an excuse for taking a regime down, be it weapons of mass destruction, Bin Laden, or whatever. But the pattern of how and why these are done, why perfectly democratically elected governments are deposed, or their leaders murdered, and if all else fails the whole country is invaded, is best explained by John Perkins, as I suggested above. So, in order to keep war and destruction away from you country and people, then this is how you must behave:
Open your country up to the robber barrons who will live off your country’s productive capacity through their use of debt, until you and your country are completely at their mercy, effectively becoming slaves through the servicing of ballooning and ultimately unpayable debts.
We have done that, so we are safe. Iran refuses to do it, so they will be obliterated, as was Saddam and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The long list also includes a long list of Central and South American countries, and the same pattern continues.
Nick – excellent scoop. In order to find out who is who of the leeches and parasites, one only needs to read this article. It also shows quite clearly the other point that we do not have two different animals in our major political parties, but a two headed beast. Our choices at the ballot box are largely phoney. Good god, what a depressing day this is turning out to be.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/cosy-deals-behind-talking-heads-kept-out-of-the-news-20100208-nncd.html
CB -
Good points. I have long been interested in World War 2 and its related history etc..
I never have believed that America ever was or is blame free – in fact far from it. However, in “picking sides” for me at least it comes to a choice between the lesser of two evils. If one could only ever “pick a side” if one of the sides was lilly white and pure, then we’d have to be “fence sitters” for the rest of our lives… and in the meantime, evil would simply spread freely as we’d all be sitting on the fence watching…
To me this is applicable to the US vs Iran and North Korea.
America and China may very well also have a showdown. I know who i’d back, do you?
Interesting fact though – I’ve never known a society who models itself so closely to Americans, yet despises and critisises them as much as Australians do…
If China had to invade Australia I have to wonder if Australians would still be so critical of the US? or would they then be remembered as our long time friends?
just wondering …
Highly relevant questions, Sandra, but the answers would have to be complex, not the one liner headline type. But if I had to summarise my basic philosophy, it would be this:
Live, and let live.
All those who want to impose their control and exploitative institutions on another country, just piss off and go home. Mind your own business. If you are attacked, then defend yourself against the attackers. Just because I am charitable to a bunch of people I favour, does not give me the right to be exploitative and cruel to those I disfavour. It is a complex world we live in, with a good mix of good and evil, and we need to differentiate between what is good and what is evil in any country, organisation, or individual. We must resist, I suggest, labelling some countries evil and others to be spotless and all good. It is a furphy and a lie. Wasn’t it Bush who named some countries to constitute an axis of eveil? And it just so happens, by total coincidence, that these were the countries who still dared to keep the robber barrons out of their borders and told the US to mind its own business. Well, what a mistake that has turned out to be.
And let us just look at the facts, Sandra: If there ever was a country willing enough to use atomic weapons, then we know which country that was. And let us face it, that country in question was not even threatened when it resorted to these barbaric weapons of mass destruction, so let us not try finding exuses for it. So, if you asked me, just by looking at the facts, forgetting all the propaganda we are being fed by MSM, the maddest dog of the lot is not what we are being sold.
sorry, I must clarify: the existence of that country not under threat, since it was well on the way to winning the war at the time.
And the best reason I find for what they had done is that they had lost lots of young men up to that point in the war, and they did not want to lose any more. So, instead, they obliterated two cities, with all their populations, from old people to unborn children.
That, too, was a choice. Some choice, one might say.
Hello PuntPal. Great link – says a million things, doesn’t it?!!!
Every day it feels more and more like living in The Matrix. What a stitch up.
anyone notice that the property shows on tv have disappeared? Backyard Blitz etc…
GB – I have not been following those in any meaningful sense of the word, but caught a few episodes here and there. Have you checked the program? If they really have been pulled, it might well be another of those canaries dropping dead in the mine shaft. Talking of which, not long ago you picked up another seemingly innocuous sign. But what was it? Cannot remember, only that I made a similar comment on it with the same imagery.
Kevin B, re. everyone claims the full $1200 for the insulation rebate. This isn’t true, myself and my neighbours had this done and the bills were about $700 and $800.
Not that I agree with the scheme – it’s a total waste of taxpayer’s money. As is the current Fed Gov’t’s spending spree to support the building industry – an example being a little-used park we sometimes go to which has a brand new eco-friendly toilet block which probably cost about $60K, and complete with advertising sign for the Fed Gov’t. All completely unecessary and a waste of our money.
In an earlier thread, etch said:
123 etch 02.09.10 at 11:18 am
aaahhhhhh jon …
i dont see deflation happening almost anywhere, cost of living expenses
be it petrol ,groceries ,houses.land ,interest rates will go up a couple times b4 years out ,utilities ,even minimum wages via ACT will go up
a whole range of things in life a just GOING UP
which is NOT DEFLATION
i actually spoke to an american & in his own words he said
” dont believe all that media beat-up BS”
To which I replied:
cb 02.09.10 at 12:15 pm
Right on, etch!!! I think that the inflation – deflation conceptual framework is too simplistic, and probably misleading. Plus, during the great depression, gold and gold stocks were the place to be. Gold crashed only when Paul Volcker raised interest rates very aggressively into double digits. That sure knocked the gold price for six. And where are US interest rates now? Le’me see …………… a big fat O.
In that light, if Jon is short on the banks, and he is giving his cash to the banks, the question bears repeating: What will happen to his cash, and to his shorts?
CB –
I guess it’s easy for us to judge America’s use of the A-bomb from the comfort of our armchairs. They are the ones who paid the overwhelming price for securing the freedom of the Pacific region, often having to resort to fighting hand to hand combat to vanquish the fantical Japanese.
What would Australia have done in a similar circumstance? I dont think we would have approached ending the war any differently.
Incidentally, there were more people killed in bombing raids over Germany than those killed in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. Was that bombing any less gruesome or less “evil”? I think not…
yeah, i checked mon to fri tv guide and only better homes and gardens is showing – in wa that is.
An yes i do think that its a precursor to change in sentiment. TV shows like that are based around hot topics like obesity and biggest loser. Property shows disappearing means property is no longer a hot topic.
I would suggest that Puntpal’s previous comment about his friends no longer going out on weekends because of mortgage poverty will become the next hot topic. The wealth effect people felt by owning a $600,000 Mcmansion is wearing off and now people are realising they are actually poor and living in poverty, i.e. once the bank takes their interest payments and they pay their bills.
That will lead to oprah style tv where people will come and have a little cry about how they can no longer afford to leave their homes and enjoy life – it will be exaggerated of course for ratings!!! The best bit would be names like Joye will become mud. You must have an evil person in a drama, someone people can hate!!!!
Sandra, I’m praying you are not now and not ever in a position of power.
- Iran is a sovereign country and entitled to develop nuclear weapons if it so wants (not that it necessarily is by the way). Who has Iran ever attacked in recent history? The same cannot be said of the USA or Israel, the world’s two most rogue nations, who launch wars of aggression on a regular basis while at the same time claiming they are doing it for defence (the same thing Hitler did, by the way). The USA still remains the only country to ever have dropped nuclear weapons on someone else, and Israel has repeatedly said it would consider it if they “had” to.
- Meanwhile, another crazy country in the Middle East (Pakistan) already has nukes. But I guess you’re not worried about them because the West and hence the MSM says that’s OK. They said Saddam was OK too (and helped put him in power), until they realised they couldn’t control him anymore.
It just goes to show the MSM can play people like you as much as they like. You are unfortunately swallowing the lot hook line and sinker.
I have commented earlier about Kevin Rudd’s dismal performance on Q and A with young Australians. Here is a video link to the session:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s2811552.htm?clip=rtmp://cp44823.edgefcs.net/ondemand/flash/tv/streams/qanda/qanda_2010_ep1.flv
And here is an assessment on how Rudd went with the kids.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/at-the-end-of-the-day-the-kids-caned-kevin-on-qa/
Chief alarmist Phil Jones, who conspired with Hockey Stick Mann and others to distort, hide, and destroy temperature data, says that he has been traumatised by Climategate to the point of contemplating suicide. But the deeper question is what on earth made him to become one of the chief participants in a fraud based on a school boy’s error in science. After all, he is supposed to be a scientist, and must have, and indeed should have known better than trying to falsify temperature records of the earth’s climate history widely taught in high school science. How could he bring himself to believe that he and his corrupt ilk could get away with it?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7017922.ece
does anyone know what this means – what will happen to rates etc…? is this why the gov is removing the guarantee?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aB26VzHLMl5g
Stuart –
points taken.
My question i asked earlier still stands though, although i see nobody has dared answer.
What will we do if (or should i say when) faced with a more powerful enemy, namely China?
Would Uncle Sam still be the enemy?
How quickly people forget … a communist government that didnt hesitate to massacre thousands of it’s own people who were protesting in Tiananmen Square
If you dont believe that China is a threat then i in turn hope that you and people like you are never in power…
Sandra, as I said, it is a complex and complicated topic. In my books, they are all mad dogs. One worse than the other. But they will need neither my help, nor my opinion. They will fight it out, while for a little diversion they also rob you and me of our freedoms and money.
Dave G
For gods sake mate do a bit of research and find out just what a Republic is!
” Individual rights are held above the masses in a republic (from what I’ve gleaned) whereas the rights of an individual can be bypassed if the ‘greater good’ in a “democracy” wants it. “
lol, GB. They could pay you good money for writing the script for them, or at least the outlines to a good ‘Ain’t that Awful’ sob show.
CB -
I do (sorta) get where you’re coming from…
http://www.documentarywire.com/the-obama-deception
Nice one, RB. Thanks. And I suppose, the fundamental principle immediately following from a Republican ideology and system is that the primary function of the state is to protect the rights of the individual. Same cannot be said about the democratic ideal and system, where minorities, individuals and their rights can always be sacrificed for the greatest good (real or perceived) of the majority.
This is what Kan’t famously described in response to Mill as “the serpentine wonderings of utilitarian theory,” or something to that effect. As long as you have the numbers in a so-called democracy, anything goes. Now, that is very rough, and potentially harsh, but not without a point, or substance.
Sorry, those were Immanuel Kant, and John Stuart Mill, being referred to.
Good one, Sandra. Indeed, that is the larger picture.
Even so, your question whether we should prefer American or Chinese soldiers to defend our soil, the answer is too obvious for the time being. But the curtains have not fallen on this show yet, and we only need to look at what is being done to the American middle classes themselves to make us suspect something more sinister in the making than currently would meet the eye.
cb you love your conspiracy theories so i attached an article you might like
If this really happened then America would not have closed the doors and walked away, they would have analysed it and come up with a strategy so they win…
From my previous posts China’s biggest threat is exports. China must keep the credit tap on until exports recover otherwise they wont reach 8% growth and may see social unrest – the americans just put tariffs on gift ribbon used to wrap presents (see bloomberg) so its a possibility they will slowly put more and more tariffs on chinese imports forcing china to keep the credit tap on until bang – the bubble pops.
http://dailyreckoning.com/pentagons-economic-war-game-with-china-may-spell-disaster/
Thank you cb, for correcting Sandra’s many misguided opinions in the posts today. You did it far more politely than I could have managed.
Sandra seems to have swallowed the biasses of the mass media and Israeli/American historians hook, line, and sinker!
Sandra.. how I interpret cb’ slant on things is that an aggressor is an aggressor whatever shape or form they take. If a country, say China, attacks us then it is normal behaviour to ally yourself to whomever can help you save yourself/family/home. Until such a threat is valid, there is no need to “fear” one another, hence ‘Live and let live”.
All nations have the right to defend themselves from an aggressor as I, and you, have the right to protect yourself and property. This right has been taken from us. A criminal will always have a gun but I can’t save myself from his aggression as I am a law abiding citizen and can be used as target practice. If my home is being systematically destroyed by armed thugs with guns, and I take a baseball bat and beat them to a pulp. Who then is the bad guy? Don’t start me on that one.
Who actually “owns” the US? Who owns the media propaganda machine? Who actually runs the world financial system? For anyone to defends themselves against their lies and aggression is justified in my books.
Nick –
I accept your points and like your analogy regarding the home invasion. I couldnt agree more and have commented here before about what i think of Howard’s move which effectively disarmed law abiding citizens – effectively making them sitting ducks at the mercy of violent thugs.
David Kidd-
That’s okay – I’ve noted that you are an American hater – so there probably is not much we’d ever agree on. In fact, your comments earlier in support of Osama Bin Laden and the like are sickening to say the least.
While I accept the points that CB and Nick have made i dont apologise for my views on America.
I guess we see things from a different perspective – when i think of America I think of the hard working, generous people who make up the majority of Americans. I believe America has contributed more than any to the safety and prosperity of the world we live in.
Like i said earlier, i find it extremely amusing listening to the animosity towards Americans from fellow Australians, whilst they’re trying oh so hard to be like Americans in every single way imaginable!
Touch of jealousy perhaps?
Given what America sacrificed in WWII in the Pacific – thereby saving Australia’s @ss – I am often amazed at the ingratitude shown by Australians. Hell if i was an American i’d tell you to go to hell!
well said sandra
I have grown up in peace and security because of the US but i doubt that would be the case with china in charge
Point of fact: I have worked in the former yugoslavia and what was happening there was atrocious. Innocent people were being slaughtered – people who couldn’t defend themselves so the americans came in to protect them at the expense of their own lives. What would china have done? Nothing – that is their motto, leave domestic problems alone….
cb you talk about all these secrets and evil going on’s but really who cares – there is nothing stopping me getting richer or getting poorer. I have the freedom to make choices and to pray they turn out positive – no one is stopping me
If you disagree then go to America and protest outside the white house then go to china and do the same – we will then see which country you prefer to be a superpower and ally
I don’t think that anyone of us is against actual “Americans” but more against those “running” America. Hell, the ordinary folk over there will agree with you as they are fighting the same people. My parents fought against the Nazis. They have repeatedly told me that they do not hold a thing against the German people but more the Nazi regime. In fact they have made, as I have since, numerous friends of German origin. I believe that the same applies to the “American” factor. I again ask, who actually “runs” America and the world financial system??
I believe that cb & Stuart summed it up very well in #31 & #42 respectively. It is complex but once you understand the workings, you then understand our current, (and coming) financial predicament.
Nick, cb suggests that these ‘people’ running the world will take my money. If i invest well how can they? Maybe through taxes? I am happy to pay taxes as long as i get roads, public hospitals/schools etc… in return.
I invest where i see potential, happy to pay rent for a place to park my bed and with the rest of my income i choose to spend it on the company that has the best marketing campaign – i guess i choose to live
I want to spend money on things and stuff. I want to experience and enjoy life and i really dont care about the inflation the gov cronies bring on because as cb always posts i can just buy gold and it will protect me from it
Sandra – there is a lot of lose talk here, and we are sometimes talking past each other. I do not believe that there all that much disagreement between us on a fundamental level. While you are quite right that America has been a beacon of light and freedom for many nations in the world, Amecican foreign policy has been, since WWII increasingly predatory. My take on it is that the owners of Wall Street have captured Washington, and with it, American foreign policy.
Everyone loves America insofar it brings freedoms from oppression, but increasingly a captured America has been bringing death and destruction to all those nations and people who have been brave and foolish enough to stand up to the special interests that have captured American leadership, foreign policy, and its military might along with them.
GB – as you say, so far so good with the world, or at least with ours here, Downunder. But, as I suggested, the credits are yet to roll on the GFC, so yes, do buy your gold while you can, because if I am anywhere near the truth with the demons I see around us, we can kiss goodbye to our Super. And that will be only for starters.
Choosing between US and Chinese foreign policy, or between them as allies, is a furphy and a false dichotomy. Why should we choose one or the other? Oh, because such a choice is going to be foisted on us? Right. And of course we are going to choose the US in such a situation, but would you also suggest that we be blind as to who and why would force such a terrible choice on us, or any other country?
I fail to understand you. We are probably talking past each other.
GB – you seem to be suggesting, in other words, that just because we would choose the US as an ally in a situation of war, we should refrain from criticising anything that US foreign policy might be doing wrong. If this is not what you were trying to say, then you need to clarify where you are being misunderstood.
Sayce is correct as usual.
Thanks to the current government and its interference in the labour market, we will probably never see unemployment below 4.5% as long as they are in power.
The minimum wage keeps people unemployed by pricing those willing to work less than the rate out of the labour market. Teenagers and no skilled people are the greatest losers thanks to the minimum wage.
It’s sad to think the majority of people actually believe we live in a free market economy when government interference is all around us.
GB…all that you say is correct. I have lived that life and have done well. However, I guess I am at an advantage in having parents who lived through the horrors of the Great Depression & WWII in Europe. They have known the “good times” and then known their money turn to mud in a blink of an eye. The hunger, and hardship, that followed we have thankfully never known. The scars of this experience never really went away so they made sure that their children knew of these horrors and how they can be repeated. As time passed they saw all the debt cycle starting over again. They were by no means experts in economics but once you have lived through a horrific storm you tend to become more wary of the warning signed and become more prepared for the next one. I have children and I want them to live the life you, and I, speak of. I cannot stop what these “people” are planning, but what I can do is train my children how to survive the coming storm. I, and perhaps others like cb etc can only bring these warnings to light so that others may begin to search for the truth and not rely on the “propaganda machine” . One thing that saved many in the great Depression was “gold coins”. Fully transportable and totally transactable by all merchants. While at the same time all paper currency was being used to keep fires burning, toilet paper and to seal the crack in the walls to keep the cold out. This is why it is being suggested to buy gold. Not to prosper in the short term, but to insure that your wealth is preserved so that you can survive the future.
I was told 10 years ago that I was wasting my money on a dead relic like gold. “This is the new millennium!!!” I was told. Those same people today have lost the last 10 years earnings while my “dead relic” has more than quadrupled.
Nick wrote: ‘I don’t think that anyone of us is against actual “Americans” but more against those “running” America. Hell, the ordinary folk over there will agree with you as they are fighting the same people. … I again ask, who actually “runs” America and the world financial system??’
Very good question Nick. Nobody is likely to stand up and confess, so all I can offer are my observations and participation in forums like this for over 10 years. At first you may disbelieve what I am about to tell you, but if you keep analyzing the news and thinking about what is happening, you will probably reach the correct conclusions eventually.
Amongst those who run the USA there are probably some who are just incredibly greedy, manipulative, dishonest individuals who have nothing much else in common with the others who are in charge. But the single most common characteristic amongst those who are in charge is that they are jews.
I should tell you that in other forums where I have seen this matter discussed there has at first been a flurry of denials from the jewslobby, followed by the forum editor/owner being brought under pressure from outside, and in several cases the forum being closed down. So it’s obvious to me that jews are powerful in our western countries, if nothing else.
Try “jews control America” in Google if you reckon I am alone in mentioning this.
On October 3, 2001, I.A.P. News reported that according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael an acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and “turn the US against us. “Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying “don’t worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America.”
There you have it. The Israeli prime minister says “the Jewish people control America.” And we can tell from the plight of the Palestinian people some 9 years later, that Sharon was absolutely correct!
If you are wondering how they do it, consider that most of the workers in the American news and entertainment media are jews. It’s known in America as the jewsmedia. Night and day, the American people are deluged in jewish news outlets, thought, music, films, books, and magazines. They are swamping our Australian culture with jewsmedia products here, to produce the kinds of attitudes Sandra has expressed today.
American business management is also riddled with jews, all the way to the top of their Federal Reserve Bank. Have I said enough to get anyone started?
Lol, Dave Kidd. You speak of the unspeakable. Hats off to you, but have you no fear?
Nick – what a treasure to have had the benefit of the wisdom of your parents!!! And credit to you for listening to them, rather than the brainwashing ocean of misinformation we are constantly imersed in.
When did your parents make a break for it? After the war? And which part of Europe did they experience those conditions, of their cash savings turning into mud? You need not reveal anything personal, but I for one would be very interested in understanding their experiences in more detail, and with a bit more context. I suspect that we would all learn something from it, if you are happy to share. thanks.
Switching subjects again, it looks like a chief warmist’s pants are catching on fire. I wonder how long before we start seeing similar in Australia. Probably not for a while, but at least in the UK all these frauds are being called to answer:
http://www.climategate.com/british-climate-professor-john-mitchell-may-face-fraud-charges/comment-page-1#comment-3487
Well, at least some elements of the ABC seem decent enough to have given Lord Monckton a fair go. Unlike, I must sadly observe, the 7:30 Report’s hatchet job on him. Why didn’t Kerry O’Brien have the decency and guts to have Monckton in the studio with him like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrXXlLBaqlE&feature=youtube_gdata
David you are absolutely correct. Why do you think they have been thrown out of every nation they occupied in history. That is why jewish women (not men) were urged to marry “outsiders’ or as they refer to us as “goyum” the lowest form of life. That way they became fair haired and infiltrated many nations. All jews, irrespective of “nationality” must return to Israel for national service. In time of war they can recall a vast army from around the world. Israel has the 4th largest armed force in the world. Their arrogance in countless news clips shown abundantly on youtube, shows that they have a total disregard for anyone in their way. They keep the Holocaust “trademark” alive through propaganda films so as to keep their “cause” alive. They obviously have learned nothing from it as they want the same fate to be bestowed on the Palestinians. As if no one else died in that war! Look into the history of the Spanish inquisition and you will not be surprised who was behind it. the list is endless. Yep. I am inclined to agree with you, hence my questions earlier.
CB -
EXCELLENT link with Lord Monckton on the ABC!
I’m sure you dont need your rhetorical question answered …
but Kerry O’Brien really is a dimwit!!
sandra, do you have the link?
The UN made a big mistake when it gave a large slice of the Palestinian’s land to the jews to create modern Israel. The UN probably thought it knew better than the Romans, who had kicked jews out of the region hundreds of years earlier. That little country has been the source of unending trouble for the world ever since. It’s been at war with all its neighbours at some time, and now refuses even to discuss staying within the borders the UN originally, overgenerously gave them.
I’m glad Nick understands this, as that now makes 2 out of all the commentators on this site who both understand and are prepared to say so. Maybe cb also understands, but prefers to hide behind his lol when it comes to saying so. Not many, is it? If the jewsmedia has us divided and conquered you have to hand it to them for doing an effective job!
dave ,cb,nick i agree
i reckon “they” could tell anything they want about iran cos they control the properganda worldwide media so much that no country can retaliate to protest their innocence or thereof,
bullied
next we will here WMDS in every 10 square kilometres of iran
its all part of the war machine industrial complex.
i really like USA but they do have a dark side running wall street
David Kidd – i feel this is a professional website so please take your racism somehwere else. Why not go live in Iran, the president there constantly reminds the western world that it is going to wipe israel of the map. Now he is building nukes to do just that. Maybe when he is finished you can go bury them all and then work out who you are going to blame next because i bet it changes nothing.
cb do you wear aluminium foil on your head?
You said you agree that the US stands up for opression, freedoms, civil rights and then say that america has been taken over by the evil people – so the evil people protect us from opression and protect our civil rights?? Thats not very evil…
America was attacked in 2001 and they responded heavily. The problem was they had a gung-ho texan in power and he went over the top. If you notice, Obama then came to power and spent his first year not fixing the domestic economy but cooling down tensions with the rest of the world
Most nations rely on america’s military – Europe, Japan, Taiwan, Aus NZ….. so it must be that there are many nations out there that trust america or maybe we all believe in the principles that america upholds. Iraq i believe was wrong but the war on terror is not – anyone who would blow up their own people with a suicide bomb needs to be taken down.
This sort of conspiracy, evil empire rhetoric was bound to get headway because the US bailed out their banks. Well 21 years ago a country had a debt crisis and didn’t do anything about it and they are still stuffed today. That said letting the banks fail would make things worse – if you disagree prove it – i will use Japan and the great depression as proof that not taking swift action will not be any better.
The talk about the jews brainwashing us is waffle and i think it degrades this website. We have watched property shows on tv, ads splashed throughout newspaper and articles about property soaring – its as if the tv/newspapers are owned by property spruikers. If we have a property burst can we go shoot them all?
lol, GB. You gotta hand it to him, Dave Kidd is not afraid to tell the truth. But seriously, GB, I am still hoping to find an alternative explanation as to why Israel can do no wrong in the US administration’s eyes. Also, why is it allowed to get away with its nuclear weapons? Why is it getting so much aid and military support from the US, even though it is against US laws to do so with any state who possesses nuclear weapons. And finally, why are all the countless, well documented human rights abuses, and the wholesale dispossession of the Palestinian people of their ancestral lands all condoned by the US administration? It would be more enlightening to get some answers to these questions than to accuse someone of being a racist. Why don’t you just call him an anti-semite? Isn’t that the way it usually goes? Or is racism now a more effective way of shutting people up about speaking out against wrong and injustice?
cb
the palestinians – i think hamas – were firing rockets every day into israel. after some time israel blew their top and attacked back. They are both to blame. So tell me – what should the US say?
Hi Israel – i know they are killing your people with their rockets but you are not to try and stop them because its not nice. Just let your people live in terror, fear and be bombed.
Why do the americans assist israel? Why do they not just shut israel down? Really mate you are smarter than that. They have hazbollah on one side, hamas on the other and Iran building nukes to blow them off the face of the earth.
Why not ask yourself this – what is in israel that is important to protect? More important than oil and muslim and christians have been fighting over it since the dawn on religion – literally. At least that would be a more logical reason for the eternal war in the middle east rather than jewsmedia!!!
and cb
each day Kris Sayce attacks the government, spruikers like Joyeetc… then people start reading the comments and see ‘death to jews’ ??? It takes away the conviction of his argument and makes this website look like a crackpot newspaper
lol, GB, plausibly so. My guess would be that before too long some people here will be kicked out, else the blog will be shut down. Still, I don’t think you answered the questions. But if you are going to give it another go, here is another one you might want to address: Why do you think the palestinian people, as represented by whatever groups, are resisting the state of Israel? Don’t you think the treatment they are receiving at the state’s hands have something to do with it?
Lookout folks, the jewslobby has sprung into self defense mode! Didn’t take long, did it? I’ve seen it happen regular as clockwork on any forum that tries to discuss the wrongdoings of jews, so I’m not surprised. Their rapid response in fact is leading me to think they might have some of their numbers continually monitoring discussion forums like this one.
Meanwhile, etch and cb have identified themselves as thinking along the same lines as the first two of we commentators to raise the question of the jews which is a 100% increase and very welcome to see
GB @ 81 -
Well said!
Every nation on earth has a country to call it’s own, but somehow Israeli’s dont have this right?
Also, as pointed out earlier by Nick & CB – every nation (and indeed individual) has a right to defend itself – but for some reason not Israel?
Israel is indeed surrounded by people who want nothing more or less than to annihilate them. The Arabs/Palestinians are definately NOT poor misunderstood peace loving people.
Israel was given its borders, why hasn’t it stuck with that? Why have Palestinians gone to work in the morning and come home from work to find their home does not exist and a Jewish settler taken over. I would also be greatly “annoyed” as well. That is only one example. Why are we always accused of being racist because we express a viewpoint that bears weight. Are Australians the only racist nation in the world? I agree that this is a professional website and to understand the current economic climate you must understand the reasons for it. Who invented “usury?” This is what the current crisis is a result of. I don’t think anyone is saying that this GFC should not be “solved” but rather than the longer it is being artificially propped up, the greater the “fall” and devastation. This will then hurt more people for a longer period of time than in the 30’s
I believe that all argument and opinion is valid as long as it relates to the subject at hand. Everyone and every country are guilty of various dark spots in our histories, but to continue the agitation and aggression only serves to fester the situation. So I believe, those who do this should be held accountable.
GB I could call you a racist for speaking against Iran! Are you a Muslem hater?? I’m sure that this is not so, but do you understand how it can be seen? As for 9/11? How convenient for the warmongers of the Bush administration, and now it infiltrates every part of freedom in our lives, from air ports to civil rights. Just like Port Arthur did for gun ownership in Australia.
CB, Nick, David et al
I dont deny that your points about the US favouring and assisting Israel more than any other country under the circumstances are valid.
Where we differ is whether this favouratism is undeserved…
Given what happend to the Jews in WWII as well as the fact that virtually all surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel shortly after independence (500 million Arabs vs 2 million Jews), many would argue that this special treatment and protectionism from the US is well justified.
Nick -
Who attacked who first after Israel was granted independence?
Yes, they certainly did keep some land which had not originally been allocated to them, but for them not to keep such buffer zones against such a rabid and superior enemy would have been very stupid!
Sandra wrote: ‘Israel is indeed surrounded by people who want nothing more or less than to annihilate them.’
Perhaps Sandra can explain to us why all of Israel’s neighbours would want to annihilate Israel if Israel had done nothing wrong? As the ones living closest to Israel I reckon those neighbours are the best placed of all of us to know what Israel is really like. We should logically be paying more attention to them. If the jews of Israel were the innocent, reasonable, poor holocaust victims we are lead to believe, I can’t imagine why any of Israel’s neighbours would not welcome them to their region.
David -
I stand under correction – and certainly you and CB and others probably know more about history than i do -
but to my knowledge i believe that the Palestinians and other Arab nations refused to recognise the existance of Israel. Their viewpoint was basically that the state of Israel has absolutely no right to existance.
That is the reason (at least which they gave) for declaring war on and attacking Israel …
David -
Are you saying that the Jews have no historical right to a (very small!) land of their own?
Certainly with my (albeit limited) knowledge of history i would have to argue that they do.
Sandra, we can go into lengthy arguments about how Israel was granted its land and the ramification that resulted. Also that there were only 2 million jews? However, I don’t feel that the politics of the region will help in our discussions relating to the GFC. I have mentioned before that I look at the “big picture” to understand the smaller detail. What is the point of looking at just house pricing and it’s affordability without understanding how it got there. Same with the larger monetary situation. It would suit no purpose to eliminate certain sections of the “big picture” just because it offends a powerful lobby group. My concern is the future of my kids. Just like my forefathers died to preserve my freedom, it is my duty to contribute the best I can to preserve the freedom of my children. Many say that China will take over Australia. I say to my children “learn to work with them as this will be your world”. However, if they destroy your homes and shoot your kids, then do what you can to fight back. Just like I used to say to them put your money in the bank and save. Today I warn them of the possible consequences of this and suggest alternate ways to prepare for their future. I am the son of a migrant family and know “persecution” first hand, but I was taught to rise above it. In Africa you can walk and live amongst the wild animals, but that doesn’t mean you take your eyes off them.
Nick -
fair comments.
Perhaps we can agree to disagree about some of the political issues.
If one wants to cut to the chase about why property in Australia is so ridiculously overpriced, then one need look no further than our fat governments – especially the state and local government. They have singlehandedly caused this crisis through causing an artificial shortage in land for development. This has ensured that property prices have sored due to the “scarcity” – thereby enabling them to increase land and property taxes ad nauseum – since they are directly related to land/property values! Now isnt that convenient for them?
I’ve said this before and i’ll say it again – get rid of the parasitic governments and vote in people who are supportive of “small” government! Government interference is at epidemic propotions in Australia and is the number one cause of our unsustainable poperty prices.
Roger that, Sandra. Alas, Kris and others maintain that there is no shortage, and that the whole thing is a myth. I personally don’t know what to think, except to keep coming back the question of rents. If there is no shortage, why have rents been rising? Or is that also false? Can we trust any of the reported stats and figures in MSM?
Your thoughts?
CB -
From what i’ve read, while rents are rising, it’s not rising in proportion to what house prises are rising. Also, vacancy rates are increasing in the rental market – tending to support Sayce’s position on a shortage being a lameduck excuse used by the spruikers.
On the contrary side though, it is a fact that state and local governments have purposefully strangled the supply of land – presumably for the reasons i stated above. This fact is stated clearly in the demographia reports (links were posted on this forum in recent topics). Another pointer to this fact is how the price of the land component of new houses has grown in proportion to the total price, i.e. the actual building is becoming a smaller and smaller proportion of the total cost of new housing. This is getting worse as government further strangles supply and causes plot prices to go up and up in response … with absolutely no regard on how this is negatively affecting dispensable income (or more accurately the LACK thereof) so that Australia is indeed developing a totally lopsided economy whereby a disproportionate amount of individuals’ earnings are channelled into the property ponzi scheme – pumped up by GOVERNMENT firstly, and secondly by banks supplying easy credit …
cb post 95 – i totally agree
they are wringing the juice of it as much as possible.
if other consumer items went up that much be it cars,petrol,pushbikes watever.
there would be a public outcry
but 70% of oz’s pop. want it this way
just really exterminating,excrucitiangly hard
@Sandra:
Also, as pointed out earlier by Nick & CB – every nation (and indeed individual) has a right to defend itself – but for some reason not Israel?
Precisely. Now apply that logic to Iran.
Defending one’s country is one thing. Human rights abuses and war crimes are another (see the Goldstone report).
Again: which country has Iran attacked or occupied?
Sandra @ 90 – Israel did not exist before the UN created it from land taken from the Palestinians in 1948.
It is a very complex situation at best. I doubt that the neighbours will ever co-exist peacefully, although on a local scale they often do.
Good point, abc. Here is a domestic scenario as an analogy:
I have a gun, my neighbour does not. Him and I think each other to be ar!eholes. I heard that he, too, is planning to get a gun. On a presumption of a right to pre-emptive self-defence, I have the right to go over to shoot him before he gets his gun with which he could attack me. How absurd. But this is the American and Israeli case against Iran.
Besieged by cowboys like this, should we be surprised that they would want to secure for themselves a definitive deterrent? You could argue that it would be dumb of them if they did not try. If threatened by robber barrons and their warmongers who have shown themselves for the reckless and ruthless cowboys that they are, I know I would.
Sandra @ 95 – I agree with etch. That is a compelling analysis. In nominal terms, anyhow.
Adjusted for inflation, as reflected in the gold price, house prices have been showing a decline from their record highs in mid 2007. Monetary inflation hides this, which is a good example of how inflation and bogus measures give us a murky and misleading picture of what is happening in the economy, to the currency, to the value of our savings and our earning power.
PF – I would have to agree. It is an unmitigated mess. Forget about loving thy neighbour. A little Live and Let Live would go a long way in that part of the world, and many other places.
Exactly, cb. It’s just like the concept in Minority Report, arresting people based on future predictions. In any event, it really is an unmitigated mess, as you say. Hardly any party is without blame.
One thing’s for sure though, the US has set the example and the rules of the game. They shouldn’t be complaining now that all the other kids in the playground want to imitate the bully. Although that won’t stop them from selling it through their media any way they see fit.
btw, I mentioned this earlier, but do you read Robert Fisk? He’s the award winning Middle East correspondent for The Independent and his articles are usually a great read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/
irans about oil & putting in a “demonocracy”
GB – If you are still with us, this is the sort of thing we are talking about, something that decent minded people find to be on the nose. They cerntainly need a few explanations, so if you have one, this is as good place as any to come out with it:
“When Obama’s elderly envoy George Mitchell headed home in humiliation this week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu celebrated his departure by planting trees in two of the three largest Israeli colonies around Jerusalem. With these trees at Gush Etzion and Ma’aleh Adumim, he said, he was sending “a clear message that we are here. We will stay here. We are planning and we are building.” These two huge settlements, along with that of Ariel to the north of Jerusalem, were an “indisputable part of Israel forever.”
It was Netanyahu’s victory celebration over the upstart American President who had dared to challenge Israel’s power not only in the Middle East but in America itself. And while the world this week listened to Netanyahu in the Holocaust memorial commemoration for the genocide of six million Jews, abusing Iran as the new Nazi Germany – Iran’s loony president supposedly as evil as Hitler – the hopes of a future “Palestine” continued to dribble away.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-does-the-us-turn-a-blind-eye-to-israeli-bulldozers-1883670.html
CB -
I see trouble brewing between Israel and Iran. It would not surprise me too much if Israel strikes Iran militarily and/or assasinates more of its top nuclear physicists…
Just by the way – i really DO understand your points (along with those of David etc). I can appreciate your way of thinking about this. But i dont draw quite the same conclusions.
Just as David (and you and the others indirectly) freely admit to being anti semitic, I am anti muslim, because I see Islam as the single greatest threat to Western civilization. They have already infected Europe like a cancer, and their numbers are growing in Australia as well.
Sandra, I would put it another way so as to not offend any side. I would use the term that I am more an “anti-wrongdoer” than any other “anti”.
Lol, Sandra – I would be ashamed of myself if I were anti-semitic, or anti anything other than criminal and wrongful activity. See my response to Dave in the most recent thread on this very topic.
As for Islam being a threat, I would be interested to know how you have come to that conclusion. Do you feel that they are somehow expansionistic? Or expansionistic in a more sinister way than, say, our guardian angels across the other side of the Pacific?
Ah, Sandra, yes, about Iran. Unfortunately, it looks like the rhetoric through MSM is being more and more strident and alarmist. No doubt this means war, or at least aerial attacks on Iran, destroying its infrastructure and reducing them to living on a heap of rubble. They have done it Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, you name it. Very sad, but this is the age of the robber barrons and that of the war dogs, and mad dogs they both are.
If nothing else, Iran will be the scrificial lamb for Obama’s second term presidency. The oldest and saddest trick in the book. But Iran is on the nose for a fair few things, so it will be cornered and attacked, no matter how insane and unfair.
@Sandra
Just for the record, I am not anti anyone. Neither should you be. We must all learn to live together or there will be no world to live in for much longer.
I would never deny Israel’s right to exist. However, I would not deny “Palestine” the right to exist either. How many thinking people in the world honestly believe that is ever going to happen?
I just cannot stand the blatant lies and hypocrisy in the media regarding this issue. Common people are treated like sheep and fed this ridiculous “Cowboys vs Indians” story. Please. There are always two sides to every story, and both sides are to blame for perpetuating the violence. The reality is there for all to see if some simple questions are asked.
Why are “they” so angry? I am not excusing the actions of anyone, but if you look at the culture in that region (in film for example), people weren’t as radicalised half a century ago. It was a lot more liberal. This particular issue, together with continual US meddling has significantly contributed to the problem.
Why is the US so concerned with meddling in that region? Why are certain brutal regimes in that region condoned (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt) while others are labelled “Islamofacists” (I think that’s out of fashion now) or some other ridiculous term? cb provided the rules earlier on in this discussion: smile while they sack the country and nobody gets hurt.
There has never been any real justice regarding this particular issue. There was never really any intention of creating “Palestine”, only to erase any trace of it. Even I have only come to realise this simple fact in the last few years. The truth is there for all to see. Heck, the Israeli government doesn’t even try to hide it anymore.
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