{ 70 comments }

51 etch February 24, 2010 at 10:29 pm

This is what you get. When an aussie sells an asset he buys food / beer / car / consumer goods / junk.
When a chinese sells an asset they buy a more expensive asset.
ALSO We sell china heaps of raw commodoties as well as services such as tourism / education. we use the proceeds of this to buy t.v’s /toys / and junk that is made in china.
When China sells finished goods to us, they use the money to buy aussie assets e.g. YOUR HOUSE. they do not buy aussie junk.
Have a look at that before you complain. oh and buy more junk please, we chinese want more of your assets

52 cb February 24, 2010 at 10:29 pm

Hmmm … I have the fealing that we are failing to capitalise on this article. It would be good to have some specific comments, before we move on, to some of the key claims made, such as:
1. Has property been a reasonable hedge against real inflation, where inflation is defined as excess money hitting the economy relative to GDP?

2. Is Sayce right in claiming that M3 alone represents the degree to which the value of the AUD has been diluted? I suggested that this is not so, as M3 should be adjusted downwards by the GDP to get a more reliable measure of real inflation. It seems to me that the CPI adjusted growth of the economy should not be counted and considered to be inflation. But what do YOU think of this?

3. If we adjusted M3, as suggested, by a CPI adjusted GDP as a better way of calculating actual inflation, how does this affect Sayce’s numbers, and namely the gaps he says there is between house price and M3 growth?

4. Do you think that growth in M3, or more accurately, inflation (if we can gain a more accurate measure of inflation) has anything to do with house price appreciation? Or do you think that house price appreciation is due to some other, more plausible factors, and if so, what might these be?

53 Peter Fraser February 25, 2010 at 12:54 am

Kevin B @ 39 – yes if a depression hits asset values will fall.

Agreed.

54 The Wolf February 25, 2010 at 1:30 am

JC @ 35

The comment you provided from the presentation that outstanding loans to total value of housing is only 30% might be true. However, wouldn’t the more accurate and realistic measure be to count only property for which their was finance attached. It seems a little misleading to include the “value” of property for which there is no finance attached, and thus there is no debt service ratio / stress level / etc.

It seems rather convenient to count in a significant chunk of asset value with no debt attached…

55 The Wolf February 25, 2010 at 1:40 am

PF @ 10

Your comment was “the increase in value of property is twofold, first in the inflation of the value of the property itself, and second in the devaluation of the debt by that same rate of inflation. If in the meantime rental equals interest cost then voila you have a gain.”

I am probably more than a little stupid, for investment property rental to equal interest cost, what sort of equity (eg. 20%, 30%) would you need to tip in to make this equation work. I haven’t lived in Australia for about 6yrs, but I remember it was extremely difficult to cover a mortgage payment with rental income without at least 20%-30% down.

56 cb February 25, 2010 at 2:19 am

The Wolf – ah, that is where negative gearing is used as a rationale for holding these dollar burning investments on your balance sheet. The typical reasoning goest something like this:
Instead of being taxed on your income you want to use for investment purposes at your marginal tax rate, which could be 30 or 40%, you use it to service the loan, helped by the rent you collect, on a negatively geared investment property, and thus treat that portion of your income as a tax deduction. Then, when you sell your appreciating asset at a profit, you will pay tax only on half of the capital gains you realise, which itself is further adjusted downwards by the CPI. Earning an income through capital gains, in other words, is more tax effective, than it is to pay high taxes at your top marginal tax rate. Hmmm… something along those lines, anyhow.

57 cb February 25, 2010 at 2:31 am

The Wolf – regarding the ratio of equity vs debt question, this is indeed important, and in more ways than at first would meet the eye.
Regardless of how you decide to calculate the ratio, it is subject to a great deal of uncertainty and potential volatility. In a housing crash, for example, the equity side of the equation will rapidly diminish, whereas the debt will stay the same.

And while this would be bad enough all by itself, it would also hit small business’s ability for capital formation, as I have been trying to argue earlier. You cannot secure a business loan against a property with absent or greatly diminished equity. Just how much we are going to be hurt on this front in the event of a property crash will probably surprise most people, seeing that there is virtually no discussion of this aspect of the property market.

While prices are rising, rising equity provides the economy an important avenue for small business borrowing for capital formation, but in property downturn this avenue will be cut off, and small business bankruptcies will probably go through the roof as a consequence. These in turn will hit household incomes and employment quite hard. That would be my expectation, anyhow.

58 tel February 25, 2010 at 5:01 am

Hi all, I am a fairly regular reader of these blogs, but a newbie when it comes to having a comment, although I have opinions often.
This one got me thinking which lead to me not sleeping as I remembered a sticker or something I once saw, it said “he who has the most wins” or something like that!
My question is the “most” what? The most money, property, toys or should is it something else?
This debate is great and as has been covered the CPI etc stats we are all told are rubbish and although I don’t totally agree with all of what Kris has to say I think he is making a great point with this one but maybe we should be thinking about this more simply.
If Kris or somebody has the time I would love to know the following, or similar, and maybe see it in a graph and the information would be great to see for a longer period than just 5-10 years for relevance (By the way I am a bit of a gold bug)
1. Average wage – in ounces of gold.
2. Average house price – in ounces of gold.
3. Cost of a standard new Commodore – in ounces of gold
4. Cost of a barrel of oil – in ounces of gold
5. Cost of a slab of Crown Lager – in ounces of gold
6. Cost of a families grocery bill – in ounces of gold
If it were all in AUD’s it will answer the main question of whether we are moving forwards or backwards and will take into account the exchange rates which I think needs also to be considered.
Based on cuurent figures (Gold = 1238.86 AUD/oz, AUD/USD = 0.8892), here is a start.
4. you can buy 14.019 barrels of oil for one oz of gold. (77.58 USD/barrel)
5. you can by 24.78 slabs of crown lager for one oz of gold. (49.99 AUD/slab)
And another interesting stat is it would take 3.75 oz of gold to buy the ASX200.
All this data would provide some relevance and if compared to other countries for housing, wages etc might tell us where we really are and have been.
It will also provide a guide to what’s happenng to our standard of living, which is really what is important, not the BS CPI figures we are fed!
Hope someone is interested and can help, cheers.

59 Peter Fraser February 25, 2010 at 7:41 am

The Wolf @ 46 – with a 20% deposit you should be positively geared. That could vary slightly, but I’m not one who believes that negative gearing is that much of a plus. Losing money is not as attractive as gaining money IMHO.

But you need to buy well – if you don’t do that then your % return is lower and CGT may not be there for many years.

60 The Wolf February 25, 2010 at 9:07 am

PF, thx.

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