Today I thought we’d follow up on a couple of the stories we wrote over the last week or so. Plus, we’ve had a rummage through the Money Morning mailbag to see some of the comments we’ve received.
We’ll head back to last week and our comments about property in our article, “How 70% of Property Investors Lose Money“.
To be honest, there wasn’t much in there that was new. We were simply restating our argument that most property investors have little to no interest in earning a positive cash flow from their investment properties.
It’s an argument we’ve made for some time. But on this occasion we drafted in some help from Morgan Stanley analyst Gerard Minack. Minack cleverly showed that right now over 70% of all property investors are losing money on their investment.
When you add up all the interest costs, maintenance costs and management fees, it comes nowhere near matching the amount of rental income received.
To me that makes the argument pretty straight forward. If you’re taking a loss on the income, then you can’t possibly be investing in the house for income. It’s a no-brainer. It would be like buying shares in a company that didn’t pay a dividend while claiming you’re an income investor.
The fact is, if you’re spending more on the asset than the income you’re deriving from it then it must be because you believe the price of the asset will go up.
Yet despite that there are still plenty of head-in-the-sand types who claim that isn’t true. Ah well, that’s fine, we’re never going to convince everyone that we’re right – even though we are.
But aside from the general comments telling us we’re wrong we also received a number of detailed emails from property investors – including spreadsheets – explaining why they invest in property and why it’s working for them.
And we’re grateful for those responses.
However, it alters nothing. In fact, based on the responses from property investors, it’s actually confirmed everything we’ve known:
That the main reason investors buy property is for capital gains, NOT income…
That property investors are happy to take a loss on the income because they believe the house price will go up over time…
That there is no incentive to pay down the principal amount on a housing investment loan. Hence why investors use interest-only loans…
And that property investors use equity in existing properties in order to borrow more to buy new properties.
That’s all fact. Surely not even the most hardened property investor could disagree with any of that. In fact, we’ll bet that 99% of property investors would agree with those statements. Proudly agree probably.
I’ll be honest, looking at some of the spreadsheets and workings we’ve received from property investors, it’s pretty scary how leveraged to the housing market these people are. Change that, VERY scary.
In fact, our first instinct when we looked at them was to suggest it would be easier if they just got themselves a second job if they wanted to earn more money. Rather than have $6 or $7 million of loans against property “valued” at $6.5 or $7.5 million, and with monthly interest payments stretching into the tens of thousands of dollars – interest payments that are less than the rent received…
It would be less time consuming and less stress if they got a part-time job working in a gas station or something at weekends. The income would certainly be higher!
But the biggest upshot of it all is that it doesn’t need the property doomsday scenario to come true for a lot of these investors to get into trouble. As you know, we ultimately believe the housing market will suffer from a massive crash – 20%, 30% or 50%, who knows.
If that happens then property investors will be toast. But even if the housing market goes through the plateau period that most of the spruikers talk about, that is likely to be the final straw for those that are on interest-only loans and who have taken out equity against one property to buy another.
Look, let me get something straight. We understand the tax advantages of property investing. We get it. But, we’ve always remembered the first thing we learnt when studying for our financial licence in the UK… and that was to never make an investment based purely on the tax benefits.
Sure, we probably learned a lot of rubbish in those classes too. Most of which we’ve thankfully forgotten. But we’ve never forgotten the comment about tax.
Tax deductibility is great if you can use it to your advantage. But, the tax aspect should be one of the last things you consider when making an investment.
In other words, the investment should be able to stand on its own merits. If you don’t see the benefit of buying an asset without a tax break, then you shouldn’t buy it with a tax break.
And right now, tax effectiveness aside, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to invest in housing. None.
Prices are at an all-time high. Prices in cities such as Melbourne have increased by 20% or more in the last twelve months.
Despite the claims of a housing shortage, auction clearance rates have plummeted and real estate agents are now talking about an oversupply of housing! And that’s based on an extra 100 or so properties coming on to the market each week. So much for the 200,000 home chronic housing shortage!
And then you take into account the fact that the rental income on a property investment is significantly lower than the cash costs of the property – about 30% to 40% based on the numbers we’ve seen.
So why would you buy property? Because of the tax break. And that’s the only reason. Plain and simple.
In my book, if a tax break is the sole reason to buy something then it fails as an investment.
But aside from that, we received a number of emails following up on yesterday’s Money Morning. For instance this from Andy:
“So what you’re really saying is: if you borrow $30 billion and waste it away, then the money required to pay it back cannot now be spent on the something else that you originally wanted to spend it on. It is the hidden economic cost of implementing Keynesian economics. (and to make it worse, you haven’t even got $30 billion worth of assets, because you’ve just wasted it all)
“It is no different from any one of us spending $50,000 on a credit card on partying and having a good time. We will have to pay back the debt, and the money for paying it back can’t be used for something else in future. But we couldn’t sell the $50,000 asset to pay it back, because there isn’t one.”
Yep. That pretty much sums it up. A stimulus programme is really just forcing someone to spend money on credit even if there’s nothing they really want.
Sure, the firms you spend the $50,000 with – to use Andy’s example – will get a stimulus boost because they otherwise wouldn’t have received it if you hadn’t been forced to spend the money.
However, after spending the $50,000 the consumer now has to pay for it. That may take them one or two years, or perhaps even longer. All the while the consumer has to forgo things that they may have bought or saved for because they are still paying back the loan on things they didn’t really want in the first place.
In a nutshell, it’s why a stimulus package can give the appearance of working because it creates an immediate high – we’re seeing that with some of the company results that have come out this week – but in the longer term it creates a drag on the economy as individuals are unable to either spend or save because they are too concerned with paying off debt.
Another great example was given by “J”:
“It’s very much like a thief breaks into a store and steals $500. But, in the eyes of some ‘economists’, that’s OK if he spends the money in the store afterwards. The store owner has got his money back!”
That’s what governments do all the time. They violently take money from income earners and then dish the cash out according to the fancy of the bureaucrats.
There’s not much difference with the stimulus. Only in this instance, the shop owner hasn’t discovered that they’ve been robbed yet.
Then there was another longer example from reader “C”. It suggests that in his company:
“For every $1 we receive from those government departments we only pay out about $0.20 in wages $0.09 in GST (which goes to other govts), nil in company tax etc etc
Of the $0.20 we pay in wages, the average employee would pay 16.5% in taxes representing $0.03 for every dollar in income. NOT 22.5 cents in the dollar but 3 cents”
Seems as though Hagen and Gruen were well off the mark there with their claims. Not only that, but it seems as though the stimulus programme may have helped firms to cut jobs:
“Further the government in its stimulus program forwarded a great investment allowance, which we duly recapitalised with overseas manufactured machinery at 50% of a tax rate of 30 cents in the dollar. In our case, this represented an additional lesser potential tax burden of $300,000, or another lesser theft from govt by $300k. But the point is our machinery, runs at twice the speed and double the life of redundant machinery so put retired 4 employees FOR EVER. Therefore my business needs less labour for each dollar earned and at the current rate is about 2 cents in the dollar turnover.”
Evil capitalist? Or someone merely taking advantage of the opportunities created by dumb government policies?
It’s the latter of course. If that particular businessman didn’t take advantage of the government manipulation then odds are his competitors would have and that could have caused the whole firm to go out of business.
Remember what we’ve always said about it being impossible for bureaucrats to micro-manage an economy? That’s a perfect example.
Whenever governments meddle, they without fail cause more problems than they cure. There wouldn’t be a single instance in history where this isn’t the case.
Naturally, there were some who claimed we’re wrong. Such as Vince who said:
“The 5% who remain in employment due to the fiscal stimulus not only earn money and pay taxes, they also spend money which increase the tax paid by others and increases the banks ability to lend money etc. This is why it is called a stimulus. Was it on this website or another that I read about the velocity of money and the analogy of rabbits running around a tree?… Your philosophy on fiscal stimulus doses not stack up. Keynes was right and the anti Keynesians are wrong.”
As is usually the case with the Keynes supporters they’ve got it wrong. Simply because they fail to see the entire picture.
It’s wrong because it fails to identify where the stimulus money has come from. We won’t cover the case again, because we went through that yesterday. But simply put, all the government has done is borrowed from the future.
It has sucked potential demand from tomorrow in order to create a false demand today. The Keynesians will argue that when tomorrow comes all you need to do is borrow from the following day in order to meet that day’s demand… and so on… for ever…
Nice try Keynesians. The problem is, each day the borrowing increases as not only do you need to meet the demand for that day, but you also need to repay the borrowing from the previous day.
The economy has tried that one for the last forty-odd years. It seemed to work for a time didn’t it? Yet now, as the US, UK, and half of Europe have discovered, eventually there’s no-one left to borrow from and the accumulated debt exposure becomes so huge the market collapses.
That’s when the central banks use their last bullet in the revolver, they print the money to buy their own debt from themselves!
Try explaining how that’s gonna work.
Cheers.
Kris Sayce
For Money Morning Australia

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… and you know, if it wasn’t for the latest politics of sustainable population policy, all those renters were coming by the boatload. All we would have needed was to build all those rental properties for them, and then everybody would have been happy :–)
Haha cb, I was thinking of letting you get away with it – because you were so helpful in getting to the bottom of the issue – but couldn’t resist.
Don’t blame you, Drew. You gotta keep the bastards honest, and occasionally their feet to the fire. It was a most worthwhile enquiry, so well done for persisting with it.
Hey cb and Drew…
Im glad to see you both carrying on a constructive conversation on the topic… You both are correct in so many ways yet I feel incorrect in the most important way…
Now at this point I should say that I am not an tax accountant and that this information is general in nature. What I am describing here is from my own dealings on the subject as a property investor. If you want personal tax advice, consult a good tax accountant and if pain persists, please see your doctor…
Okay then, what Ill try to do here is break down the example of transgender Jo and her Property Tax dilemma…
Now Jo earns a good income. She works at one of the more illustrious establishments around Carlton, where many suits from around the area go to visit during the working week for a cold beer and a warm and friendly chat… From time to time she is even known for pulling a good crowd on a Friday afternoon which makes her boss very pleased indeed…
Alright.. Now Jo earns $100k plus tips in this profession. Not bad squid considering, but she is at the top of her game. She also has an investment property (lucky gal!). This investment property earns gross rent of $24k.
Now just looking at Jo’s income she is earning $100k + $24k = $124k pa. Under normal circumstances Jo would have to pay income tax on this full amount, but this isn’t any normal circumstance. This is an important point… she has $124k in earnings, okay?
Moving right along… Now Jo unfortunately has to pay outgoings on this investment property such as management fees, loan interest, council fees and strata levys just to name a few. These cash expenses amount to -$31k. Jo also managed to get a Depreciation Schedule done on the property, however they weren’t very good at their job and only found -$1k for her to depreciate this year.
Jo is not happy about the cash expenses because this is such a large chunk it will eat into her take home pay from the illustrious establishment. However, one of the suits that frequent the establishment told her, “Hey Jo, all those cash expenses and non-cash expenses are all tax deductable!”
Okay then she thought… so as Jo’s marginal rate plus medicare levy was 45%, she could get back 45% of these expenses from the tax payer… That is -$32k x 45% = $14.4k return. Now I think at this point Jo would like to thank the Australian taxpayer for their generous contribution to her rental expenses, also to the ATO for making the rules that allows her to make this claim, and finally to the pollies in Canberra for…. ahh forget that one…. just the taxpayers and the ATO then.
So looking at Jo’s taxable position, she pays income tax on $124k (income and rent) – $32k (total expenses) = $92k taxable income…
See that…
She earns $124k, yet she only pays tax on $92k…. “you little beauty” she thinks…. In effect, the Australian taxpayer has paid the taxable component of her expenses which is $14.4k.
Therefore, looking at her investment property on a standalone basis to determine whether her negatively geared investment property is cash flow positive or cash flow negative, we have…
$24k (rent) – $31k (cash expenses) + $14.4k (return) = $7.4k positive cash flow
Now I know what you’re thinking… What about the tips?
Well, I think the tip is implied…
MG – Which of the following statements would you distrust?
1. Jo is a transvestite and far less confused about her gender than I proved to be.
2. His total declareable income is $124k, but her taxable income is $92k.
3. The tax man cuts her some slack, but still treats him rough to the tune of $41.4k.
4. He collects total $124k. (we ignore the tips)
5. She pays out thusly: a) $31k in expenses and $41.4k in tax for a total of $72.4k.
6. Thus, her net cashflow with an investment property is $51.6k.
7. By comparison, without the investment property, his taxable income would be $100k, on which she would pay $45k to the tax man, leaving him with $55k in the hand.
8. Hence, cashflow-wise, she is worse off by $3.4k with the investment property than he would be without it.
9. But he is a smart girl and prefers putting his savings into a real asset, using them, and her tips, to pay down the debt, which will speed up the transition from losing on the property to becoming cashflow positive with it.
10. This list is not short of the numbers of the 10 commandments.
http://www.don-mclean.com/cart/a2b/3.mp3
@51 spot on
MG, you almost got away with cb’s generous explanation that you’ve “gotten the numbers mixed up in this case”.
But, while your story was entertaining, you’ve again proven that your understanding of negative gearing is wrong. I’ve checked with a tax accountant friend and confirmed this.
If what you’re saying was true, even with today’s low rental returns available, everyone could go out and buy property that is cash flow positive from day one. Doesn’t that strike you as unrealistic?
I wonder if you’ve actually gotten away with this for all these years, or have been making losses and thinking they’re profits.
Ah, but Drew, the funny thing about it all is that if you are well positioned in an inflationary environment, you are still going to come out ahead, and MG’s case is a very good example. He has been crossing the river by going with the flow, and even though he might have miscalculated the point at which he made landfall on the map, what matters is that he took the right approach and he crossed successfully to the other side, and hence, he is laughing.
This is the nature of picking the trend right in a secular bull market. Even if you buy high and prices slide for a while, your buy price will be taken out and you are put back into the black by the secular bull. MG, and no doubt many others, got the fundamentals right and picked the direction of the primary trend, and winners, as the saying goes, are grinners. The rest is technicality and the bean counters are paid well enough to worry about it all they like.
cb, with the extraordinary capital growth of the last couple of decades, I agree that you could come out ahead, even without knowing the difference between a profit and a loss.
I’m not so sure the next couple of decades will be as forgiving. Isn’t there a saying that you find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.
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