- Money Morning Australia

Why Australians Will Pay for Queensland’s Floods

Written on 08 January 2011 by Kris Sayce

Yesterday I wrote to you about the silly headline in The Age newspaper. It was this:

“Queensland rebuilding will boost GDP”

Look, we love it when we see this kind of nonsense written. Simply because it gives us an excuse to again read Frederic Bastiat’s, “That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen”.

You can click here to read it for yourself.

I won’t reprint it because you should read the entire essay. But in a nutshell, it’s economic nonsense to suggest that a flood will be beneficial to an economy.

Only an economic ignoramus would argue such a thing. Floods destroy things. Floods make no distinction between the destruction of brand new goods and goods that are due for replacement.

The last time we brought up this subject we were told it is good for the economy because money comes into Australia from insurance companies. That this money hasn’t been taken from elsewhere in the economy.


To borrow from the title of Bastiat’s essay, it only considers that which is seen but not that which is not seen.

Even so KPMG chief executive Michael Andrew is quoted in The Age article:

“This will release a lot of cash from insurance company balance sheets, many of which aren’t in Australia. Many are reinsured offshore in Europe or the US, so the extent to which they have to fund loss-of-profit claims, a lot of money potentially flows into Australia.”

It’s the idea that Australia is getting a free lunch from the insurance companies.

The fact is, Mr. Andrew couldn’t be more wrong if he tried. But let’s run through the argument in more detail…

Think about it, how do insurance companies raise money? They charge premiums. Premiums paid for by Queenslanders and others.

Now, how does an insurance company pay for the claims made by policyholders? It covers the costs from its reserves but would also issue bonds to investors which it will then repay over time from insurance premiums.

Here’s the problem for the insurance company. Aside from the big payouts such as the Queensland floods, or the Christchurch earthquake, the insurance companies also need to pay out other everyday claims.

So, the insurance company will need to rebuild its cash reserves.

How will it do that?

Simple, it’ll need to increase insurance premiums.

And who pays for the insurance premiums? Individuals and businesses. In other words, money that would otherwise have been spent elsewhere or saved will be now spent on increased insurance costs.

Yes, some industries may benefit as claimants buy another item of furniture to replace the item that was destroyed. But it is at the expense of say, the clothing store where someone may have spent money but they are no longer able to do so because of the increased insurance premium.

But what about this idea that foreigners are actually funding the rebuilding as the cash flows in from overseas.

While that may be true, it ignores the attitude of those overseas investors. If a reinsurance company has to fork out more money than expected to pay for a major incident then it will naturally demand an increased return or premium before it invests more money.

That means the Australian insurance firm paying a higher rate on the bonds it issues or on the reinsurance policies. And that means passing on higher premiums to policyholders.

In economics there’s no such thing as a free lunch. If something is destroyed and needs replacing then there will be a cost to replace it. That cost will either be a direct or indirect cost.

Think about it this way. If there really wasn’t a cost, then why wouldn’t you just crash your car and write it off at every opportunity? I mean, that’s the logic Mr. Andrew is using.

The reason you don’t write your car off is because you know there will be a cost to you in the form of an increased insurance premium when you get your next car.

There is no difference between this example and the costs of the Queensland floods. To the Australian economy as a whole, and to anyone who holds any kind of insurance policy there will be a cost.

Claiming that foreigners will pay for the flood damage without any impact on Australians is just another childlike example of the Australian mainstream falsely believing that ‘Australia is different.’

One day they’ll get it through their thick skulls that Australia isn’t different. Australia has benefited from an extraordinary boom in the resources industry which has helped prop up the entire economy.

When that boom stops, the Australian economy will suffer. Only then will the mainstream numpties realize that the Australian economy is no different to anywhere else.

Kris Sayce


Money Morning

Monday: You’ve got your eye on a stock – but you’re not sure if it’s the right time to buy it… You’re holding another stock that just went up – or down – significantly… but you don’t know whether it’s time to sell… The solution to both of these dilemmas will become a lot clearer once you’ve watched this video (turn on your speakers).

Tuesday: No wonder Diggers & Drillers editor Dr. Alex Cowie looked jolly as he bounded into the office this morning. The “Stock Doc” has been long coal stocks since March last year. Click here for more…

Wednesday: We see the lazy Aussie retailers have launched a media campaign. They were clearly influenced by the success of the miners’ campaign against the Resources Super Profits Tax (RSPT). Except they forgot one very important thing… Click here for more…

Thursday: But speaking of non-robust and flaky, much to our surprise we received a reply to our Freedom of Information (FoI) request from the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA). Click here for more…

Friday: This ‘George Soros tipoff’ could make you 226% to 389% in 24 months. (Just don’t share it with anyone else).

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119 Comments For This Post

  1. KP Says:

    Yes! On top of flooding Queensland lets burn Victoria to the ground again and we will be REALLY rich!!

    Actually, ACT would be first on my list…

    Amazing how stupid most people are, no concept of a market at all.

  2. bb Says:

    The biggest driver of our micro-economy is building construction. It directly and inderectly employs more Australians than any other. The government knows this and it acknowledges that the $16.4 (and counting) BER ripoff wasn’t about getting value for money or because every school really needed a new hall. It was entirely about keeping the construction sector and the myriad of supply lines that serve it on the boil. This is ending and the cycle which allows the boom bust sine wave of the industry is poised to switch to bust after the biggest taxpayer funded sugar hit it ever had. I’ll give you a quick example. I needed scaffolding fo a building. I rang one firm. Not interested just yet cause they are flat out with the schools jobs but they will quote around May. Yeah right! Next one. Comes out and quotes $13K – based on the unit rate they get for the schools jobs. Piss off mate – your’e milking it cause you know the BER project is run by dickhead public serpents that don’t give a stuff about how much it costs. Next quote $3K and they can do it befor Christmas. In fact they do it on the 24th December. Why? Cause they need the f*****in work mate! Next up were the painters quotes. Two came in at around the $40K mark. Why? Well they still have lots of work on with BER. Then one came back with an adjusted price of $26K. What happened? He just got the flick from one of the head contractors on the BER. Guess he now NEEDS the work too! It’s happening right now folks. The law of supply and demand is creeping back. If you plan to do any construction or building work then WAIT a bit if you can. You will save heaps if you delay till the second half of this year. If you can’t make sure you shop around because the trades have been spoilt rotten with the amount they have been charging for work on the BER.

  3. michael francis Says:


    Totally correct. By the end of the year, labour costs in the construction sector will be half what they are now. Tradies will fight tooth and nail with lower costs to win jobs, especially cash jobs. ( I bet many tradies have huge debts that need servicing making them more desperate as work dries up.)
    Undercutting has already started as the big fall in building permits is beginning to bite.

  4. Drew Says:

    Good one KP :)

    Doesn’t this indicate that there is a problem with using GDP as a measure of a country’s success? We don’t judge how well a company is going based primarily on how much they produce.

    Why is it different for a country?

  5. Fitch Says:

    bb / mf – Developers/major builders could the be first to go. Mate of mine (despite my desperate warnings) strapped on a barbwire condom and jumped into bed with the BOQ on a unit development circa $17m.

    12 months ago the back slapping could be heard echoing in neighboring suburbs since then constant council delays, pre-sales have dried up and the banks hooked it’s heels in. Can’t get any further in, can’t get out and his suppliers and tradespeople are driving him mad pressuring a start because they need the work.

  6. andy dufresne Says:

    Must say I have no sympathy for any of them. Bottom line is, if any of the tradies in particular felt this was going to last forever, whilst strapping on the mega debt noose, they need to taste the medicine. I suspect this probably won’t happen whilst we’re living in an era of politically soft, touchy feely nanny staters.

    The whole stimulus program was the most pointless and unproductive Keynesian exercise we’ve undertaken as a country. Total knee jerk stuff.

    But, there is hope and it would seem by the actions of the ATO that some of the liquidity will be mopped back up. An accountant friend is assisting a ‘cash only’ tradie who received a letter from the ATO along the lines of;
    ‘Please explain how on a declared income of $20K, with xx in the bank and no evidence of loans taken, you’ve managed to spend xx through loyalty card number xx at [major boating and fishing retailer].’

    He’s not alone apparently. But he forgot two key lessons – big brother is watching and make hay while the sun shines!

  7. Fitch Says:

    Hope andy? What do you think they’ll do with all these errant tax dollars when they finally get hold of them?

  8. oysterboy Says:

    bb @2

    Spot on. Some of my builder clients have had a very quiet Xmas . Gravy train not only stopped, the tracks have been ripped up for scrap. All they did was delay the inevitable.

  9. cb Says:

    So, given all that, which way for rates the next time around?

  10. oysterboy Says:

    CB @ 9 – to quote Buzz Lightyear “To infinity and beyond”.

  11. Beauner Says:

    How will this enemy be defeated?

    Is there any hope at all?

    Questions….questions…. :D

  12. cb Says:

    John Embry on KWN

  13. cb Says:

    That is a good sounding quote, Oysterboy, but if you expect that rates will keep going up, what are your reasons? Especially given a tanking economy, should not expectations point in the opposite direction?

  14. Peter Fraser Says:

    Well perhaps we could all just pretend the floods in Qld and WA really didn’t happen, rather that analyse what will occur.

    Insurance will pay for an enormous amount of reconstruction, and this insurance has been re-insured across the globe.

    That effectively means that the rest of the world will pay for a large part of the reconstruction – a little fact that you guys in your maccabre glee seem to have forgotten.

    So Mr Sayce and others here – please try to put a little more thought into your analysis prior to the outpourings of waffle.

  15. bb Says:

    How’s your ‘waffle’ production plant going PF? How many businesses, farmers, home owners etc. actually have insurance policies to cover their losses? Just going from the news reports many appear to claim that they don’t have it because it either isn’t available in designated flood prone areas or is riduculously costly. My point wasn’t about the flood impact on Australia’s economic conditions for 2011. It concerns the building and construction industry downturn of which I am an intimately involved with over 30 years experience.

  16. bronco Says:

    When we moved to Mackay, we purposely looked for and found a house which was relatively sheltered from cyclones and on top of a small rise safe from flooding. When cyclone Ilui blew through last season, we emerged totally unscathed, so no claim necessary. Not long after that, we received our household insurance renewal. It went up 65%…and this from the insurance company which purports to provide value-for-money insurance for those of a certain mature age!!!!!

    Insurance will not “pay for an enormous amount of reconstruction”. That cost will be borne by those of us who pay insurance premiums.

    Given the fact that this lot of Queensland floods have wrought many times the destruction of Ilui, what will that do to my next household insurance premium?

    So please tell me where I sign up for “the rest of the world to pay for a large part of ” my insurance premiums!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. michael francis Says:

    I’m going to sound like a real, heartless prick, but here it goes.
    In Australia flood plains will flood and the bush will burn. If you choose to live in a flood plain or the bush then don’t come to me in tears for sympathy or a donation if you lose your home to fire or flood because you will get neither.

  18. bb Says:

    Perhaps PF stands ready to stump up the extra costs for insurance premiums for bronco and all the other Qlder’s and WA’s but don’t stop there, you can bet the insurers will hike their rates ALL OVER Australia – regardless of any impact or risk profile. What it means is that INFATION – the real cost of living, not the so called basket of Bullshit the ABS choose to measure – will go up and with it the trigger for interest rate increases. This is making PF squeal so much and make disparaging remarks about ‘waffle’ cause it will likely impact directly on his particular business enterprise.

  19. cb Says:

    bronco @ 16 – Well said. No insurance company would stay in business if it were not making money. Ergo, even after it pays out after a disaster like this, the net situation is still that money is being made off the back of the policy holders.

    bb @ 15 – Exactly. Flood is one type of insurance that is the most difficult to get, if you can get it at all, and even then your payout is absolutely measly in comparison to your loss. And that is on top of the fact, as you mention, that most people would not carry flood insurance because of the prohibitive premiums and poor payouts on flood damage.

  20. Peter Fraser Says:

    bb @ 18 – no impact at all on me. The comments that not all have insurance cover are correct, and I accept that. Also a lot of infrastructure is state owned (roads rail etc) so the replacement cost will be borne by all including the Federal Government.

    But a lot of private owners do have cover, and the risk has been underwritten and re-insured, and to ignore that is a little disingenuous.

    Your other points on the building industry are interesting – the industry was indeed always considered the barometer for the economy, and it has gone through many cycles like this. I expect tradesmen will be falling over themselves to gain work over the next few years, when it will be a great time to build, although many potential clients will wait until it is busy again.

    I expect building material suppliers will be starting to discount again as well.

    As for the cost of insurance – yep premiums will increase, no doubt about that.

    There will be flood appeals and money invested by the state and federal government, and much of it will be wasted. It will be a bit of a comedy really. Luckily, whilst it is a tragedy for many, it isn’t on the human scale of the Victorian bushfires.

  21. Peter Fraser Says:

    cb @ 19 – in Qld the major insurer is Suncorp who do have flood cover, at least that is what they claim, so a greater proportion of householders than you estimate may have good cover.

  22. michael francis Says:


    Ironically I have stopped working for big builders-developers (I’m a contract engineering surveyor). The reason is that this period in time reminds me of the year 1989-1990 when many big builders and developers went bankrupt and sub contractors like myself never got paid because of it. For those who remember some big names in the construction sector went under.

    Not being paid also sent me to the wall.

    Vowed that would never-never happen again. That period of time is here again, the music might still be playing but the party is about to be gate-crashed, big time.

  23. puntpal Says:

    CPI, Unemployment, GDP….they are all a crock of shit in terms of measuring inflation, employment market strength and the overall health of an economy (respectively).

    They are measuring tools implemented by the State to manipulate the public and our understanding of how they are ‘managing’ the economy.

    Despite the fact that everyone knows the flaws in these metrics…the entire ABS (1000’s of employees) cant device a better way to measure what it going on???

    p.s. I dont care one little bit about the damage caused by these floods. I am sick of people trying to make me feel bad about certain things…who decides when we should feel compelled to be charitable? Channel 9 are the people we trust to decide when a telethon special should be staged??

    Its just a chance for people to feel good abotu themselves…I love charity, its the way we can get rid of the State….but I hate being forced to care about things that I dont care about.

    Watch opportunist like Gerry Harvey try and get back in the good books by donating some $$ to the flood appeal.

  24. michael francis Says:



    Speaking of a crock of shit, check out how, in the USA, the method they use to determine unemployment figures. Mish explains it quite well. I bet they use a similar formulae over here.
    Did you know that if you do unpaid work you are most likely to be classified as employed-what a joke.

  25. cb Says:

    MF – That must have been a nasty experience. Could businesses like yours protect themselves by insisting on a healthy deposit to start with, followed by progress payments as you get the work done, e.g., no stage 3 work until Stage 2 has been paid for, etc? Or, are the bigger developers the price and conditions makers in the industry, so that one is unlikely to get work from them with such conditions? I am just thinking that if such be the case, that can only be because there are enough suckers in the marketplace who will still take the risk of being shunted.

  26. Beauner Says:

    Very interesting…..I cant wait to see what Australia is going to look like in 10 years time….

  27. cb Says:

    MF you said:

    “Did you know that if you do unpaid work you are most likely to be classified as employed-what a joke.”

    I agree, given that, and in so far as, the primary purpose of the figures is to show the number of people who depend on government support to make ends meet, even if in a most modest manner.

    However, if people on benefits are in fact working, and thus contributing to the economy and the overall maintainence of society, then there is an arguable case for considering them, not as unemployed, but in a category that could go under the name of “Paid Community Service.” I say this on the strength of an analogous situation where public servants and politicians, who are also on the taxpayer’s payroll, are not classified as unemployed.
    Your thoughts?

  28. cb Says:

    Hey Beauner, you aren’t anxious to see yourself 10 years older, too, do you? It is all part of the package, given that the machine came without the FF button. :-)

  29. cb Says:

    PP – yes, it is a rather perverse situation, where the very public servants who are meant to serve society are spending more and more of their time with manipulating and managing society’s perceptions and expectations, often deceiving people about the real state of the economy and of the nation. And all that on the healthiest and fattest salaries and benefits at socienty’s expense!!!

  30. michael francis Says:


    Generally big builders pay 60-90 days from the end of month when the invoice was received. The builder in many cases waits to be paid from the client until he pays you.
    In one case, when I started to panic after the 90 days was up, we were told that the developer was in financial trouble. The only way we could expect our money was to keep working, get the project completed, sold and then the funds would be available for payment.
    We were never paid as what money was made from the eventual firesale was gobbled up by the ATO and banks. Cost me a fortune in legal fees though.
    Those who work in heavy construction generally know the risks and charge accordingly. You can make a lot of money when times are good, but you can lose a lot when times get bad and you fail to heed the warning signs when the industry is in decline. And, believe me, the industry is in decline.

  31. Peter Fraser Says:

    MF – I have believed for some time that we will have a nineties recession style experience, so stay away from the construction industry.

    You can insure invoices in some industries, so check that out if you have concerns.

  32. michael francis Says:


    I would like to see figures that show how many people earn less than $6000, between $6000 and $20,000, between $20K and $35K etc. (basically a breakdown of all persons of working age whose earning fall within the various tax brackets. Then break that down into private sector, government sector and welfare earnings.)
    Also included are the numbers who don’t work but don’t claim benefits ie a wife married to a rich husband who doesn’t need to work.
    I would also like to see raw numbers and not fudged ‘seasonally adjusted’ figures. I believe such figures, though not perfect, would better describe the health of an economy.

  33. michael francis Says:


    I remember that recession very well, in construction the rot set in late 1989 when the phones stopped ringing and it didn’t crank up again until 1994. Work was regular and steady up till 1997 then it went ballistic.
    I was at a surveyors conference in 2003 and we gave the building boom another 12 months before the bust, but it kept on going.
    How wrong were we.

  34. cb Says:

    In the Gold and Silver Market go long and stay long this is the biggesdt bull market in the history of the world says Bob Chapman The International Forecaster …

  35. Peter Fraser Says:

    MF – as far as I am concerned it is 1991. There was great opportunity in the years after that for the cashed up brave investors.

    Absolutely cb – sell everything and convert it to gold if you have faith.

  36. andy dufresne Says:

    Fitch @ 7,

    Good point, wasn’t thinking that far ahead TBH. But if there’s a wall that needs pissing on they’ll find it.

    To hell with updating productive infrastructure, hospitals and all those other auspicious economic cliches. That’s so yesterday, besides, there are winners to be picked.

    CB&MF, that data must available somewhere. From my experience I wouldn’t expect to find many public servants under the $50K mark. Back 10 years ago I saw junior project support/admin people earning $50-55K in a State Government department. I’d imagine they’ve had annual 2-4% increments since, which in all honesty, makes them ridiculously well paid. That said, what do we say about their seniors, who are realistically no more productive?

  37. cb Says:

    Yes, MF. Statistics like that would be worthwhile to have. The ones we are being fed is spin and potentially a disservice overall.

  38. cb Says:

    One should always invest, not on the basis of blind faith, but of rational belief, and one should always distrust the notion that nothing can go wrong, and hence one has to stay diversified. That is, and has been, my considered position, and nothing in that headline description goes against it. Bob Chapman might have a different view, of course, but such is not expressed in that description, which simply spells out how one should invest in a bull market in anything, and in this instance the metals.

  39. Drew Says:

    In Australia, if you just worked one paid hour in the survey week, you are not counted in the unemployment figures!

  40. cb Says:

    MF @ 30 – Yes, I agree. The question is whether a white knight might ride to the rescue again with ‘STIMULUS’ written on his front and back? It would not have been for the first time.

  41. puntpal Says:

    MF – cheers for that, those examples of unpaid family workers being counted as employed are pretty bad. And as Drew said, Australia thinks someone is employed if they do 1 hour a week.

    What is clear, is the Government has designed these metrics in a way that paints their performance favouably…so you have unemployment measuresments that intentionally downplay the amount of people that dont have enough work.

    You have a measurement of inflation that has totally downplayed how much of our income is now required to go towards the fundamental consumption good (shelter) and GDP…as Drew has also said, is just insane…measuring economic activity allows idiotic Keynesian stimulus to be justified and for idiots like the KPMG dude to pretend destructive natural disasters are good for the economy.

    If anyone wants to see a good blog (not very active) but one ripper of an article on the fallacy of Australia’s house price to income ratios…check out Critical Influence Blog


  42. michael francis Says:


    My concerns are that our debt levels are now in uncharted territory and have surpassed the debt levels that triggered the 1930’s and 1890’s depression.
    Though the 1990’s recession was a bad one, debt levels were smaller compared to todays as average homes cost around 4 X income and a sizeable deposit of between 20%-30% was required. As a result many householders did survive interest rates of 20% by tightening their belts. It was the belt tightening that triggered the recession and those that couldn’t survive 20% interest were forced to sell which caused house prices to fall.
    Work for me picked up in 1994 and the projects that kick started the construction industry in Melbourne were Citilink and a number of freeway and infra-structure constructions (government funded).
    When Aussie John started handing out cheap credit to anyone with a pulse I was contracted to volume builder AV Jennings then everything went berserk in the housing market including subdivision and road construction. Massive infrastructure was also built to service the new suburbs and growing population. Much of this infrastructure was government funded from money collected in rates, property taxes and fees imposed on developers. Initially demand increased prices, then investors moved in and continued to bid up prices. The problem is investor is bidding against investor with borrowed money. All this is now going into reverse.
    My personal opinion, though alarmist, is a depression caused by massive deleveraging, bankrupcy and the withdrawal of investor funds for lending out. Throwing more stimulas (debt) money or having the RBA print dollars to stave off the inevitable will only make matters worse.

  43. michael francis Says:


    That’s a great blog site.

  44. Beauner Says:

    MF — Thanks for the insight man! :D

  45. Fitch Says:

    mf @ 42. Some very pertinent points regarding the 1990’s recession. I took a whopping haircut during that time and vividly remember it all. What is of concern today is not only the level of mortgage debt but personal debt and the disposable income required to service that personal debt.

    Recent figures tell us that personal debt has reduced but all that tells me is that most have maxed out their cards and are making the obligatory payments to remain within terms.

    Also it’s difficult to deleverage this debt as there aren’t necessarily any assets to sell. So those afflicted are essentially underwater and the $50k of credit card debt could well cost them the house.

  46. Peter Fraser Says:

    MF – but interest rates were higher. Try using a factor of debt times interest rate and graph that, and you will find it is flatter than you expect.

    The danger is rising rates, but if rates rise too much, creditors will have large write offs, and they know that.

  47. puntpal Says:

    Rising rates is one threat…but what about rising prices. Electricity, food, child care. The average family is under cost pressures already. I was a kid in the 1990s recession but I think the inflation scam (factoring in the falling cost of electronics as if they offset the rising costs of essentials) has hidden another threat to the family budget.

    The cost of servcing debt is at record levels…Keen has pointed this out time and time again!

  48. bb Says:

    Speaking of the excesses of our public serpent wages check the excel list on NSW’s fat cats with the chief pig at Energy snouting up over $770K per annum from the taxpayer. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ofarrell-to-give-fat-cats-another-life-20110109-19jxv.html
    The accompanying story demonstrates that Premier elect Fatty O’Barrell is trying to keep them all calm up to the March election by promising not to swing the axe to vigourously. Let’s hope that he is just using the sensible strategy that when slaughtering pigs you only take one out into the butchery yard at a time less they all get spooked! Oink oink boys and girls. Time to try and get some real jobs – maybe in mining?

  49. peter fraser Says:

    MF – PP and others – you bears should enjoy Leith van Onselen’s blogsite.


    MF – the infrastructure is largely paid for by the developer, not the council or state government, which is why our land is so expensive.

  50. Jay Says:

    I didnt think the floods were covered in most insurance claims…..

  51. cb Says:

    Drew – You had some questions about the indoctrination of Jewish children into believing that they were smarter and better than the Goyim. This one is relevant, a glimpse of the fire that generates the smoke, as it were:

    “Parents In Religious Custody Fight Met At Adult Theater
    December 17, 2010 6:23 AM

    CHICAGO (WBBM) – A custody fight is heating up and due for trial next month in Cook County Court between a Catholic father and a Hasidic Jewish mother. Both parents have come a long way since the day they met.

    It was the mid 1990s.

    He was a manager at the Admiral Theatre, an adult entertainment venue on the North Side.

    She was a performer.

    They married. And nine years later, divorced.

    He went into real estate. And she went from adult dancer to very strict Hasidic Jew.

    “I don’t really know her reasons for her embrace of her new lifestyle.”

    Nelson Derbigny is the father of the 8-year-old boy at the center of the custody fight. The mother is Elina Margolina.

    He says joint custody is not working because his ex-wife, the former Admiral Theatre dancer, holds strict beliefs which she’s imposing on their son.

    “I guess I just don’t want him to think of one group of people as being superior to another group of people.”

    Court filings by Derbigny say his son told him, “Jews are better and smarter than non-Jews.”

    Derbigny says he doesn’t fault his ex-wife for her religious views. He says he just wants his son to have a full childhood. And to not think of one religious group as superior.

    Court filings by Derbigny’s attorney say the boy has told his father he couldn’t go to church because “Jesus is in there and he is bad.”

    The attorney for the boy’s mother has refused to comment.”


  52. peter fraser Says:

    cb @ 50 – that is one case in isolation. In fact secretly every parent thinks their child is smarter and better than the rest.

    You also have to take into account the often bitter nature of divorces and child custody.

    I can’t believe that you would use such a puerile line of argument.

  53. JB Says:


  54. peter fraser Says:

    JB – wow a capital gain of 13.6% for the year. You should be happy with that.

  55. PuntPal Says:

    Cheers PF – delusional economics is another blog (along with unconventional economist) that is on my daily reading list.

    Houses and Holes and Critical Influence are also great

  56. michael francis Says:


    Your correct that developers put in infrastructure themselves however councils do arrange to design and build infrastructure as well. Particularly traffic management, recreational and occasional road duplication works. That’s where I get most of my work nowadays as a contract surveyor to local government. I enjoy it because it is stress free and I know I will get paid. At this stage of the cycle I wouldn’t jump back into the developers pen because talk within the industry is that some are sailing close to insolvency.
    A large road builder-developer who I used to contract to, Akron Roads went belly up only a few months ago. And another developer who I contracted to that were building Mt. Martha Cove Marina went belly up about 18 months ago. Right now I’m playing it safe.

  57. JB Says:


    My apologies for the late reply, but regarding the Global Warming Swindle Debate link you mentioned…

    I had a good look at this and quite honestly could not find any scientific information which contradicts the principles raised in the documentary.

    The seemingly knowledgeable “warmist scientist” there from the IPCC didnt impress me much and made a lot of statements and interjections which would no doubt have impressed non-scientific foke that he was right…

    The key facts regarding ice core records and temperature leading CO2 concentrations (and not the other way around) was not at all refuted, and was in fact strengthened by the debate in my opinion.

    The two “skeptical” scientists were on the other hand quite impressive and there points remained unchallenged, despite seemingly impressive sounding interjections from the IPCC man…

    Also, I believe this whole “debate”was a very good example / case in point of how the mainstream media are promoting the warmist scam and agenda. The interviewer – Toney Jones – is a real tit and was not even mildly subtle in his biassed questioning of this particular subject matter.

  58. JB Says:

    PF @ 53:
    yes you’re right – i am. a 13.6% appreciation against the “best performing currency of 2010″ is very impressive indeed!
    The “true” appreciation can be seen against the US dollar of around 30% – impressive indeed…

    Even more impressive was the gain of silver:
    60% against the AU dollar
    and 83% against the US dollar

    Have you made any better investments during 2010??

  59. michael francis Says:


    I wouldn’t be surprised that this ‘on-selling’ is a scam whereby one entity on-sells a property to another entity after spending a few dollars in planning approval to justify the doubling of its price. The scam is that the separate entities are controlled by a single parent entity that grows fat on the fees they scim off the capital gains for basically on-selling the property to itself. And I bet the money comes from super funds.

  60. peter fraser Says:

    JB – Ah well if you are maintaining your money in US Dollars you have indeed done well, and if you had a very substantial holding of silver, then again you would have done very well.

    But of course the wheel of fortune is still in motion.

  61. cb Says:

    DC – A very good discussion of Assange, double standards and Israeli attempts to drag the US into war with Iran. Also of the custody battle mentioned above:

    “Mark Dankof joins the program to discuss the latest wikileaks controversy and the likelihood that indeed it was at least partially an Israeli intel operation aimed at harming the United States’ ability to operate diplomatically.”

  62. cb Says:

    Ah yes, the good old spin. Everything that Jewish people do wrong is an isolated incident. So is every demolished home, parcel of land taken in Palestine, and the creation of an apartheid society in that land, and every murder, war crimes and human rights violations, they are all isolated incidents. How purile of me to even mention them.

  63. cb Says:

    And more spin about gold’s performance by only focusing on its performance in AUD for 2010. Only a mere 13.6%, says he in a snide remark. And while that sort of performance by a financial insurance policy is nothing to scoff at, the real story is bigger than that.

    What is that story? Well, it is in the main point of the article. It is the debasement of the world reserve currency. When confidence in it collapses, where will people holding fiat money seek to protect their purchasing power? That is the question that you have to ask yourself while thinking financial insurance against the ongoing debasement of the USD as the world reserve currency. So, let’s stay focused.

  64. NatoNoel Says:

    General observation:
    I’ve noticed a trend for posts to spin off into all sorts of different topics that are not related to Kris’ main post.
    I wonder if we could adopt a general rule (if it doesn’t exist already) to stay on topic (i.e. Kris’ post) and leave non-relevant discussions to other forums?
    Also, the tone of voice at times in some comments can come across as highly sarcastic and derogatory to other commentators.
    Can we agree to try and be civil and non-derogatory?
    If we all stick to the main subject and aim for civility I suspect there will be more relevant comments.

  65. Nick Says:

    a quote worth remembering……
    “”Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”

  66. peter fraser Says:

    cb @ 61 – but you only ever go on about one side. You never once mention terrorism or things such as the massive insurance fraud scams that we all have to pay for.

    Until you can see that in all arguments there are two sides, you will always be completely lop sided in your conclusions.

  67. Drew Says:

    JB @ 56 – thanks for the reply. I think Tony Jones is a great interviewer, but I agree – he came across as biased in this show. And I agree, the show was a battle about who could sound more credible, not who had the best argument.

    To be honest, the science is way over my head. But I do get the impression that the sceptics’ concerns have been answered. What do you make of this site: http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

  68. cb Says:

    Who said that, Nick? It is an excellent observation, and it should be a warning to us all that all fiat money we are forced to deal and trade in, is debt money. The implication is as horrible as inescapable.

  69. peter fraser Says:

    cb @ 62 – I was using JB’s data – do you believe it to be wrong.

    Wasn’t gold worth about $1563 in 2009 ???

  70. peter fraser Says:

    cb @ 66 – the quote is by Norm Franz who is another wierdo religious cult leader that you guys love so much.

    You know – the “holier than thou type that you should never trust.

  71. Why? Says:

    Every thread on here refers back to the jewish topic…

  72. SG Says:

    CB – You will like this

    Go to You Tube and search for “John Moore- Global Warming, What The Government Isn’t Telling”

  73. cb Says:

    Truth is found in all sorts of places and comes to us from all sorts of people. Nobody has a monopoly on truth, let alone on insights into complicated matters and wisdom. Besides, telling the truth in the face of government’s dishonesty is a revolutionary act. Debt money is the principle means by which the elite banksters, along with their political whores they have bought and paid for, rob the honest people of the purchasing power of their savings and incomes. It is no surprise then that those challenging the financial, economic and political status quo are denigrated at every step by compromised and conflicted interests.

  74. cb Says:

    As for going on about only one side, and namely the misdeeds of the zionist Jews, I am merely pointing out the other side, the hidden and ugly underbelly, of the constant propaganda and brainwashing we are incessantly subjected to through MSM, day in, day out. If the Jewish interests in question were not pushing their losses and their pain and their version of what happened in history on the rest of us, even to the point of suppressing free speach so that their version of history cannot be effectively challenged, not without pain of punishment through the criminal courts, I and others would have little interest in these subjects.

  75. cb Says:

    It is spin to continue ignoring the main argument of the article in question. In any case, JB has more than adequately made the most relevant points about the metals’s performance. He challenged anyone to find a better performing asset class, and so far we have not heard.

  76. dc Says:

    cb @ 60 – the deeper I get into the material on Hufschmid’s website, while he comes across as a bit of an odd-ball on the surface, the more I feel that his material is honest and authentic. I am leaning towards his claims that American Free Press is under Zionist control is true. I’d be skeptical of their podcasts.


  77. Nick Says:

    Why aren’t these people all jailed for “anti-Semitism” ?
    Why aren’t they jailed for inciting hatred towards an entire race of people and the children of those people.
    Why aren’t they jailed for calling on a total genocide of a peoples, in their own words….”total” “wipe them all out”. A Holocaust.
    …and they are doing it all while residing in another country.

    Who is the “cancer”?

    If it were the other way around, what would the “outcry be?

    These are the “God’s chosen”. The only thing missing is a banjo!


  78. cb Says:

    Clearly, the Chinese are not the only ones thinking of re-monetising gold, to make it a recognised means of payment.

    “Imagine paying your next parking ticket in gold Krugerrands or renewing your driver license using American Gold Eagles.

    A proposal in the Utah Legislature would require the state to allow just that, requiring government agencies to accept gold for transactions, and creating a parallel monetary policy for intrastate commerce tied to the price of gold.”


  79. Nick Says:

    cb….74….I find this in all my travels and dealings. The wave of change can only be seen in the bunkers, and it is massive. MSM is a total joke.

  80. cb Says:

    DC – Hufschmid is creating much noise. If anything, I would be inclined to believe that he is guilty of precisely of what he says about the AFP. In any case, I do not give much weight to WHO the personalities are, or their allegiences and petty quarrells. I tend to listen to their analyses and build my own solution of the puzzle with the various pieces that I collect from here, there and everywhere.

  81. cb Says:

    Nick – I agree. And talking of bunkers, the imagery of the erupting volcano comes to mind. We see the smoke, the hotting up of the geysers around the mountain, we feel the tremours, and not unlike St Helena’s, the side of the mounting is bulging up. Those with sense are packing their belongings and taking out insurance. When will it blow, nobody knows. Will it blow? We cannot say for sure. But the relevant question is still this: Who is being foolish here? Those who are making preparations, or those who cannot bother?

  82. cb Says:

    Wtf? I cannot post anymore?

  83. cb Says:

    it will not post what I want to say. wtf?

  84. JB Says:

    cb @ 78, 79:

    thought police?

  85. cb Says:


  86. dc Says:

    cb – sorry that must have come across differently than I had intended, it was certainly not an accusation against you.

    No, you would never judging someone by their personality, but mainstream readers might.

    It has occurred to me that oddball behaviour might be a deliberate ploy in that if he is actually a disinfo agent, then an oddball personality would serve to discredit the information on his website. The same thought occurred to me about Brother Nathaniel, who at first glance appears like a crazy religious fanatic.

    I think this would turn mainstream critics off the scent if you get my meaning?

    I don’t think he is just creating noise, and I get the impression that his personality is just the way he is. But this is relatively fresh information, so I may be biased, I am happy to be corrected.

  87. cb Says:

    Well, folks, it looks like I have been gagged on this forum. I will try a few more times to post what I wanted to say. If they keep screening and wiping my contributions, I will not bother any longer. I got wiped another time, on the third attempt.

  88. dc Says:

    cb – I noticed when you try and post more than one link it gets held up in moderation, could this be the problem?

  89. cb Says:

    dc – no, I did not think that you made a comment about me. I thought you were talking about the petty squabbles between these personalities. I have not read much about H, and only glanced at his arguments at the link you provided. Some clearly petty and spurious, inconsequential, and elsewhere misleading, where he is downplaying the CFR and the Builderbergers significance. He is a misinformant, it seems to me, and his attacks and accusations against AFP, that it is controlled opposition, pretty much summed up my impression of HIM.

    Anyhow, what is his take on things? Would you care to summarise?

  90. JB Says:

    cb @ 83
    I hope you get this sorted out.

    as dc says – more than one link will not work, however i think you’re already aware of that.

  91. cb Says:

    No, JB, there is no link in what I am trying to say on the link at 73, and any which way I am modifying it, it gets wiped.

  92. cb Says:

    Anyhow, let me have another go at it in other words. What you see in that video clip is outright racism and bigotry at its worst. But it is fine for THEM to be racist and criminal like that, and you and I are gagged from even saying it, because if you criticise their mideeds and wrondoings than you are an anti-youknowwhat. SHeessshhhhh

  93. peter fraser Says:

    cb – have you been eaten by a shape changing lizard alien life form?

    Is it on YouTube?

  94. peter fraser Says:

    I wish I had 3D.

  95. dc Says:

    cb @ 87 – some forums block certain keywords I think, perhaps rewriting your message will bypass the filters?

    cb @ 85 – point taken about the CFR and Bilderberg Group, that made me wonder too, but do we have any hard evidence that these are really key groups and not expendable?

    He may be lying, but I at least follow his logic.

    What does seem evident is that Zionist forces have infiltrated almost ever media outlet, except for a rare few independent internet websites. If they’re promoting these groups as targets, then it begs the question why?

    You are right though, there is no reason to trust him more than any of the other so called truth tellers.

  96. peter fraser Says:

    Nick @ 73. If I didn’t know better Nick I would say that you are trying very hard to build kudos with Iran so that they buy your drugs and therapies.

    I’m sure that you wouldn’t stoop that low.

    Have you nailed that deal down yet?

  97. dc Says:

    A lot of Hufschmid’s information seems to be aimed at educating the readers on how to understand the Zionist scams and tricks, and to rationally arrive at the correct conclusion, rather than to preach and point the finger at various groups.

    I watched this three part series last night about who the “Illuminati” really is.

    This could be disinformation, but it seemed pretty spot on to me. I’m happy to be corrected of course.

    cb – in one of the later parts, he explains that there is a rift between the Rothschilds camp and the Zionists , which I suspect may be related to the in-fighting you have mentioned in the past.


  98. cb Says:

    dc – Yes, H seems to be doing some good work. It is plausible that essentially zionist ideologues and extremists are doing many of the attacks and anti-semitic activities in order to keep the moderate Jews frightened and in firmly siding with the zionist camp and agenda. Indeed, many God-fearing, decent Jews have said so, and complained of mistreatment at the hands of extremist zionists, so that line is quite plausible.

    And I guess from here he is pushing the controlled oposition line about what the likes of Piper and Brother Nathanael are saying, who seems to be more general in their condemnations of Jewish power and influence. However, I regard their differences as being not more than quibbles over the finer points. It is like any movement. The individuality of each participant strives for confirmation and so fragmantation is rampant. You need to look no further than, say, the so-called Christian faith. How many little fragmented groups are there? Is it even possible to count them?

    To use a more specific example, what is the big difference between the interpretation of the faith and religious truths between the Baptists and the Pentecostals? And more importantly, does it even matter? Standing back from it a little, one would say that it matters not one bit. However, for those who are in it, those small differences are almost all that matter. I am tempted to say that the quibbles you see between the various identities in this movement are analogous, and not something one should get bogged down in. Your thoughts?

  99. cb Says:

    Members of the thought police should not get their hopes up, lol, and definitely should not start painting the devil on the wall, in a manner of speaking, lest it appears (on YOUTUBE).

  100. Nick Says:

    cb…@77…you have no idea how correct you are.

    cb….@95….don’t worry, the world is wide awake. It’s just us in Oz that need some cold water thrown in our faces.

  101. dc Says:

    cb @ 94 –

    In a later video he explains how the elitists are split into two basic factions – the Rothschilds + the Royal families and the Zionists who he thinks are at odds with each other.

    Does this seem valid in your oppinion?

    I notice that Hufschmid is suggesting completely the opposite line to Piper in sense, in that he claims the Zionist criminal network are largely to blame and that the Zionists were directly involved with the world wars, whereas Piper blames it on the Jewish population as a whole and claims that the Jews had nothing to do with the world wars.

    Nathaniel is similar to Piper, but seems to alternate between blaming the Jews, Zionist Jews and Talmudic Jews.

    I tend to differ as to this being a quibble over a finer point, especially with Piper who has provided no explanation and no sources about his assertions that the Jews were not a factor in the wars and some of his other claims.

    I am starting to notice that if you accuse the Jewish population as a whole, then it is far easier to label you as anti-semitic, or to play the hate card, which seems to be the direction Piper is pushing his listeners, so I am skeptical that this is incidental.

    Hufschmid on the other hand points us towards anyone who is involved in the Zionist criminal network whether they are Jewish or not and says that what we should be doing is getting the names and addresses of anyone who is part of the network and then handing it into the police. This seems a more rational and sensible approach to me.

  102. dc Says:

    The two suspicious things about Hufschmid is that his half-sister is married to one of Rupert Murdoch’s sons and that he has had TV appearances. He claims the Murdoch connection is a coincidence, whereas in the Penn & Teller show he seems to be telling the truth, but was framed to look like a tin foil hat wearing oddball.

    He claims he was deliberately setup, the question is was he innocent or a willing participant ?

    Penn & Teller – 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

  103. cb Says:

    DC – Yes, sure. Piper is targeting Jewish influence and power in general, so that one is pretty clear. Does Hufschmid want to focus on Zionism as a sick ideology, zionist criminals, or criminal activitiy in general and without naming them in terms of their ethnicity or loyalties, or is he working in an undefined, nebulous soup that tries to fragment and undermine the efforts of AFP through the likes of Piper and The Ugly Truth?

  104. dc Says:

    cb – It may be both.

    He does call out some names and identify the names of individuals and organisations, more than I’ve seen Piper do so far at least, but upon digging deeper still, I am becoming convinced Hufschmid too is a rat.

    Apparently for many years he supported the work of Journalist Christerfer Bollyn, but it seems they have had a falling out. It is a long and complex relationship, but Bollyn claims that Hufschmid started writing disinformation about him and his family and started behaving erratically.

    Here is an open letter Bollyn writes to Hufschmid:


    Bollyn states:

    1. You have spread false news.
    2. You have damaged my business and reputation by spreading false news.
    3. You engage in baseless allegations against serious 9-11 researchers, like Dr. Steven E. Jones, and others.
    4. You use violent and hateful language.

    I have also found disinformation on Hufschmid’s website myself, for instance in several places he claims that Zionist Jews were responsible for the world war. In one place he references to a page that is exclusively dedicated to the history of Israel, that is supposed to explain it, but I can find no such explanation.

    In fact I find just the opposite, he claims that so many documents were faked in WWI that no one knows what the Zionist involvement in WWI was and in WWII it seems that Hitler hated Jews and did his best to undermine them. While he does claim that the Zionists profited from Hitler, there is no indication that they were responsible, in his very own account of history.

    This seems like deliberately planted disinformation. I’d guess he never expected anyone to take the time to read it.

    So given the Murdoch connection, the statement from Bollyn and the apparent disinformation I’ve seen for myslef, I’m now guessing that Hufschmid was deliberately planted by Zionsists to undermine the truth movement. He was probably chosen for his odd-ball personality.

  105. dc Says:

    This is interesting, Bollyn accuses Hufschmid as well as Piper of being two of the most persistent and vicious detractors he knows.

    Eric Hufschmid and Rupert Murdoch – Agents of Deception

    To understand why Michael Piper spends so much time slandering me, one need only understand that he works for Mark B. Lane, the Jewish Zionist lawyer who owns the assets of the Liberty Lobby and American Free Press. Lane is responsible for instigating the mass killing at Jonestown by increasing the level of fear in Jim Jones, seen here on the left shortly before he gave the order for the massacre.

    Lane is an old Army intelligence/C.I.A. agent who began his career in occupied Germany at the end of the war in 1945. Lane earned some $5 million in legal fees representing the Liberty Lobby, and when Willis Carto nearly bankrupted the lobby in 1993 Mark Lane had plenty of cash to take over its assets.

    Lane is the intelligence agent who gives Piper his marching orders and provides him with his license to lie. The whole thing is a C.I.A. disinformation and controlled opposition operation, very similar to the National Zeitung in Germany. For decades the erstwhile Spotlight had a monopoly on the so-called “patriot” press.

  106. dc Says:

    So I guess the question is now, are Hufschmid and Piper really both agents that are discrediting Bollyn or are Hufschmid and Bollyn both lying to discredit Piper, or are all three agents?

  107. dc Says:

    I’m not sure if this is a smear against Hufschmid and Bollyn, but it seems to document extensive disinfo put out by both of them, which would suggest that they are both deliberately trying to discredit AFP. I will look into Piper and AFP and see if I can fnd some dirt from other sources.


  108. cb Says:

    Yes, DC. As I said, I took two sniffs at H and he smelt like a rat to me. I don’t know anything about Bollyn. who is he and what is his line?

  109. dc Says:

    I don’t know Bollyn well, but he was working extensively with Hufschmid for many years. The link I posted suggests that they are both compulsive liars and continual propogators of disinfo.

    He also used to work for AFP but was fired.

    I’m trying to determine the authenticity of takeourworldback.com

  110. dc Says:

    Here is an interesting link from take our world back, this information suggests that Jewish and Zionist forces did indeed support Hitler financially because it furthered their Israel agenda. I understand correctly, this would contradict Piper’s claim that Hitler was not funded by the Jews.

    A Comprehensive History of Zionist Crimes

  111. dc Says:

    And an illustrated version of what seems to be the same information.


  112. dc Says:

    Whether Piper is guilty or innocent we’ll have to see, here is his latest podcast:

    The Piper Report Jan 10, 2011

  113. cb Says:

    Thanks, DC. I have started to read that compilation and, if accurate, then it provides an answer as to why there was such a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany after the first world war, something that Hitler and the Nazis then could capitalise on. It was a question of loyalty, and to be honest, I cannot see how any self-respecting nation would or could look kindly on the undermining of its interests. I was not aware, however, that International Jewry declared war on Hitler so early in the piece, in 1933. I thought it was much later, once the war had started. What is the truth of the matter here?

  114. dc Says:

    cb – is that what Piper talks about in one of his podcasts? When he said international Jewry declared war on Germany?

    According to the information on the linked page, the economic war forced Germany to expand into its surrounding countries.

    As for the truth of the matter, yet it is true.

    The source material states:

    “Samuel Untermyer – a wealthy Jew with strong links to US leaders – broadcast an announcement that World Jewry was declaring economic war on Germany.”

    And Wikipedia confirms it:


    Untermyer publicly called for the political destruction of Germany in 1933. As quoted in the New York Times on Aug. 07, 1933, Untermyer exclaimed: “The Jews of the world now declare a Holy War against Germany. We are now engaged in a sacred conflict against the Germans. And we are going to starve them into surrender. We are going to use a world-wide boycott against them, that will destroy them because they are dependent upon their export business.”

  115. cb Says:

    Thanks, DC. Very interesting, but accourding to “there is no bloody conspiracy,” Jewish bankers got on famously with Hitler.

  116. dc Says:

    This might be useful in piecing together the events leading to WWII..

    THE NAMELESS WAR by Archibald Maule Ramsay

    Here is the story that people have said would never be written in our time — the true history of events leading up to the Second World War, told by one who enjoyed the friendship and confidence of Mr. Neville Chamberlain during the critical months between Munich and September, 1939.

    There has long been an unofficial ban on books dealing with what Captain Ramsay calls “The Nameless War”, the conflict which has been waged from behind the political scene for centuries, which is still being waged and of which very few are aware.

  117. peterquixote Says:

    Yes all true.
    Here in Christchurch, after the shock ,there was a flush of excitement.
    The New Zealand assessors were granting local hick do it yourself repair merchants up to $NZ 5000 for filling and repainting over minor cracks in the walls .
    They were told to do so, by senior Government people .
    Because the money was coming from overseas Insurance brokers, and it was going to
    “boost the economy”.
    well the fast people got paid out fast, and then the flush of money slowed, now it is a trickle, and the refusals are more and more.
    Because those bloody Australian assessors came in and said
    “this is bullshit mate, these dudes are on the make”

    And they [ the Australian assessors] are being supported by the big overseas Insurance brokers.

    By the time they get to me I expect that the money will have run out, proving that you’ve gotta be fast,

    Please Australia conquer us as your eighth and ninth State< I promise I will make us obey your laws.

  118. Sam Says:

    What happens to notes /money when it burns in the house?
    It gets replaced by Treasurery.
    How to compensate for other disatsters?
    Something similar?
    Compensation of ten million dollars to individuals and twenty million for corporations are most unreasonable by all means.
    In addition so much repitition of insurance.
    We need atleast half a dozen smart people to fix this insurance business.Some get nothing some get more than they have lost.

  119. David Stanton Says:

    Why is everyone so keen on kicking the insurance companies over paying for flood damage?
    What about the responsibility of Local Government and State Governments around Australia who allow the development of land below the 100-year flood line. Land Developers seem to get off ‘scot-free’ they know the risks but no one seems to be prepared to knock them back.


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