NAB and Westpac’s Secret Bailout Revealed

It’s time for an apology. No, not from your editor. We’re always right, so there’s no need to apologise [wink].

Instead the apology needs to come from the Australian mainstream financial press. The same financial press that told you Australia’s banks were strong.

That Australia had the best prudential regulation in the world. That Australian banks were different to all those dirty foreign banks.

But an apology also needs to come from the banks who themselves claimed things were different here. And that Australia’s banks didn’t have the same solvency problems as US and European banks.

Why do they need to apologise? Well, two years after the global financial markets collapsed, a secret bailout of two of Australia’s biggest banks has been revealed.

This is pretty big news. Or rather, you’d think it would be pretty big news. But as you can imagine there’s almost uniform silence from the banks and the mainstream press.

Shortly after we sent you yesterday’s Money Morning we decided to do a bit of fishing around on the US Federal Reserve website. You see, earlier that morning the Fed had released some pretty hot material, and we wanted to see what it contained.

What we found shocked us. Although it really shouldn’t have, because we knew the claims about the Australian banking system being strong and robust were complete lies anyway.

In fact, so shocking is this revelation that we considered sending you a Money Morning special edition yesterday afternoon. But we didn’t. We’re fed up of giving the mainstream scoops which they then claim as their own.

Instead we thought we’d wait to see if the Australian mainstream press picked up the story first.

Surprisingly they have. But not with any enthusiasm. And hardly with what you’d call any effort. Probably because they’re a bit sheepish about the fact the banks and regulators have made fools of them. I’ll provide you with the link to the one story on it in a moment.

So excited were we to see how the mainstream had handled this story we did something we normally never do – enthusiastically open the Australian Financial Review (AFR).

The first thing we did was check the Companies Index on the back page. This was promising, the two banks in question were mentioned. We eagerly flicked through to the relevant pages… and drew a blank.

Not a single mention of it. So we started from the front and worked our way quickly through the paper… page seven… here it is… “Rescues: RBA borrowed billions from Fed” was the headline… but no, this isn’t what we’re looking for.

On we went, past the big centre-fold spread telling readers that the AFR contains, “Up-to-the-minute market information, news, commentary and expert analysis… All from just $44 per month”.

We continued… through to the end. Not peep. Not a single mention.

And the AFR is supposed to be Australia’s premium business newspaper. We wouldn’t have thought so.

About all it’s good for is lining bird cages in our opinion.

But then, we guess if the AFR exposed the banks’ duplicity it wouldn’t be able to get an interview with the likes of Commonwealth Bank of Australia [ASX: CBA] CEO Sir. Ralph Norris.

Said person is the feature item in the Boss glossy mag insert in today’s AFR.

We can’t be bothered reading it. It’s surely pap.

But anyway, what the heck are we going on about? This…

I’m talking about the near collapse of the Australian banking system in 2008. I’m talking about the likelihood of two Australian banks collapsing in 2008 if they hadn’t secured a secret loan from the US Federal Reserve.

The fact that National Australia Bank [ASX: NAB] had to borrow USD$4.5 billion from the US Federal Reserve during 2008 and 2009.

And Westpac Banking Corp [ASX: WBC] needed USD$1.09 billion in January of 2008 and 2009.

What’s that, you don’t know anything about it?

And you don’t remember reading about it?

There’s a simple reason for that. It’s been top secret information until yesterday morning.

That’s right, if it wasn’t for the passing of controversial legislation in the United States you’d never have found out about NAB and Westpac’s Federal Reserve bail outs.

And based on the lack of interest from the mainstream press – including Australia’s so-called premium business newspaper, if it wasn’t for Money Morning you’d still be none the wiser.

The one and only article we’ve found that mentions it is this one from The Age, headlined “NAB, Westpac tapped Fed”.

It appears to be an adaptation of a New York Times article based on the reference at the end, with localised bits added by Eric Johnston. But this one pathetic effort shows just how clueless the Australian mainstream press is.

Johnston makes this comment:

“The Westpac borrowings are unusual, as it barely has a North American presence, operating only a US representative office.”

Seriously, do I really need to explain it to a veteran journalist?

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees. Talk about not getting it.

Here’s a clue for Mr. Johnston, it wasn’t Westpac’s US office that needed the dosh, it was Westpac in Australia that needed it. It shows you that without the direct financial support of the US Federal Reserve Westpac and NAB would have been toast.

Westpac and NAB needed the loans because they were on the verge of going belly up. It’s that simple. If they hadn’t gotten secret loans from the US Fed they would undoubtedly have needed secret loans from the RBA.

Fortunately for the RBA, the Fed opened the door and this allowed Aussie central bankers and bankers to claim that the Aussie banks hadn’t received a bailout.

But not only that, what’s most extraordinary is that Westpac was one of the first institutions to borrow money from the Fed when the lending facility became available!

But more about that in a moment. Let me give you some of the background first…

You may have read about something called the Dodd-Frank Act. The full name is the Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. It’s called Dodd-Frank after the bill’s sponsors, US Senator Chris Dodd, and Representative Barney Frank.

The legislation mandates a number of things, but part of it is the requirement for the US Federal Reserve to reveal which institutions it loaned money to under the various bail out programmes.

One of those programmes was titled the Term Auction Facility (TAF). According to the Fed’s website:

“Under the program, the Federal Reserve auctioned 28-day loans, and, beginning in August 2008, 84-day loans, to depository institutions in generally sound financial condition…

“…Of those institutions, primary credit, and thus also the TAF, is available only to institutions that are financially sound.”

OK, so only “financially sound” institutions were eligible for TAF loans. That would be financially sound institutions such as LloydsTSB plc which got a USD$10.5 billion loan from the Fed and which later had to be partially nationalised by the UK government.

It would also include ABN Amro Bank which grabbed USD$1.5 billion of loans from the Fed, and which would later cause such a financial strain on Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) after RBS bought it that the UK government had to partially nationalise it too.

Not to mention the USD$53.5 billion of loans RBS needed directly.

Then there was Allied Irish Bank, who could forget it? The Irish certainly won’t.

Between February 2009 and February 2010 Allied Irish Bank needed USD$34.7 billion of loans from the Fed. Allied Irish Bank also had all its obligations guaranteed by the Irish taxpayer and is the primary reason why Ireland now requires an International Monetary Fund and European Union bailout to the tune of $113 billion.

And what about Bayerische Landesbank which needed a USD$13.4 billion bailout from the state of Bavaria? Well, apparently it was financially sound enough to borrow USD$108.19 billion between December 2007 and October 2009.

So, we can take with a grain of salt the Fed’s claim that only “financially sound” institutions had access to the TAF programme. Financially unsound and insolvent banks were given loans too.

And in the middle of all that wheeling and dealing, when a total of nearly USD$4 trillion was loaned to and repaid by “financially sound” institutions, Australia’s very own National Australia Bank and Westpac were in on the action too.

Although it was only a relatively small amount compared to some of the other transactions, it was still USD$4.5 billion and USD$1.09 billion respectively. But it was still a lot more than the USD$1.5 billion needed by financially unsound ABN Amro.

Also don’t forget that the NAB went to the Australian stock market in late 2008 to raise $3 billion. That was a sum it needed to bolster its capital.

If $3 billion was a significant and important number for the market to know about then surely USD$4.5 billion (about AUD$7 billion at the time) was even more crucial for the market to be aware of.

But there wasn’t a peep from them.

Because as I say, you didn’t know anything about the NAB’s and Westpac’s Fed loans. It was all top secret.

And it’s obvious that $3 billion capital raising still wasn’t enough because NAB had to go begging to the Fed twice after that for $1.5 billion a time.

But as I say, you didn’t hear a word about this at the time. It was all top secret. But that didn’t stop the bankers and regulators and politicians from posturing about the stability and strength of Australian banks.

In January 2008 Westpac denied there was a problem with its US exposure. That’s despite the fact just one month before, on December 20th 2007 Westpac had gotten a USD$90 million loan from the Federal Reserve under the TAF programme.

Not only did it get the loan, but it was one of the first in the queue! As you can see from the screenshot below (click to enlarge):

Source: US Federal Reserve

You can check out the full details here by downloading the spreadsheet.

You’ll note that Westpac applied for the loan on the same day as Citibank (bailed out by US government), Lloyds TSB Bank (bailed out by UK government), Bayerische Landesbank (bailed out by Bavarian government), and Societe Generale (which was bailed out by the US government courtesy of the AIG bailout against which SocGen had a massive CDS exposure).

In other words, we’re talking about a rag-tag bag of insolvent banks. And our own insolvent bank – Westpac – was amongst the thick of it, begging for an emergency loan from the US Federal Reserve as soon as the doors were opened.

It’s something you’d think would be of interest to shareholders don’t you? But there wasn’t a word from them.

And it must now make the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) feel foolish, considering in September 2008, just before NAB sought the Fed’s help, the RBA wrote:

“The Australian financial system has coped better with the recent turmoil than many other financial systems. The banking system is soundly capitalised, it has only limited exposure to sub-prime related assets, and it continues to record strong profitability and has low levels or problem loans. The large Australian banks all have high credit ratings and they have been able to continue to tap both domestic and offshore capital markets on a regular basis.”

Tapping “offshore capital markets” obviously included the US Fed.

So we wonder, how much did the Reserve Bank of Australia know about this? While it was talking up the strength of the Australian banking system did it know that two of the four Australian banking pillars were desperately seeking loans from the US Fed?

Or, like you, was the RBA in the dark? And what about the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA)? We’ve been told they’ve done all manner of stress tests and the banks passed with flying colours.

How can that be possible if Westpac and NAB need emergency loans from the US Fed? Was this included in the stress tests?

Anyway, we’d like to know. So we’ve fired off emails to the RBA, APRA and the Australian Securities Exchange (ASX) asking them these simple questions.

  • When did the RBA/APRA/ASX become aware of Westpac and NAB’s loans under the TAF programme?
  • If RBA/APRA/ASX were not aware of the loans under the TAF programme please explain why.
  • If RBA/APRA/ASX were aware of the loans please explain why this wasn’t considered to be important enough to inform the market?

We’ll let you know if or when we get a reply.

But it wasn’t just Westpac that kept quiet about it.

NAB chairman Michael Chaney must surely have realised what he was saying when he made the following comment at the December 2008 annual general meeting:

“Our traditional banking and wealth management operations are all profitable, strongly capitalised and conservatively funded. In addition, our banking businesses have sound asset quality and are well provisioned.”

So sound was the asset quality that just six weeks earlier NAB’s New York branch had to arrange a USD$1.5 billion loan at an interest rate of 0.6% with the US Federal Reserve.

All under a shroud of secrecy.

All under the belief that no-one would ever find out about it because no-one could find out about it. The Fed at that time was under no obligation to reveal which banks were taking short term loans from the Fed…

Until the Dodd-Frank Act was passed.

Look, we’ll say we told you so. We’ve claimed all along that Australia’s banking system is no different to any other. It’s inherently insolvent – as are all modern day banks.

Along the way we’ve been called a “lunatic” and a “nutter” for writing what we believed to be true. And would you believe it, once the secrecy of corrupt governments and bankers is revealed this “lunatic” and “nutter” has been proven correct.

But I understand it may not seem like that at the time. Yesterday we received this email from a Money Morning reader:

“Hello Kris

“I don’t normally send comments to publications nor do I sit there and read others comments, however, yesterday I came across a sticker on a car bumper. When I read it, I immediately thought of you and I think you will like it too.

“‘Do not steal. The government does not like competition.’

“I enjoy reading your daily newsletter. Even though some of your theories sound crazy at the beginning, it’s funny how they do in the end sound believable. We do live in a world where some people do not put other peoples’ interest first.


It’s true. Government is above the law. It can legally steal private property – it’s called taxation. Nice trick huh!

But Lisa hits the nail on the head. What you read here may sound crazy, but it only sounds crazy because it’s outside the norm. It’s different to what you read anywhere else.

And that’s simply because we don’t have to worry about what our advertisers think – because we only advertise our own services. And we don’t have to worry about turning readers off with our seemingly radical ideas, because most of our readers come here because of those radical ideas.

My guess is you’re fed up with being told the same rubbish day-in and day-out by the mainstream press. A mainstream press that reports from press releases, and trusts whatever it is the guys in government or on Wall Street say.

In contrast we’ve learned to doubt everything they say.

We take the view that anything a mainstream economist or analyst says is wrong. It’s up to them to convince us they’re right. Very few of them succeed because ultimately… I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant, they are wrong.

The state of Australia’s banks is a perfect example. For the past two years you’ve had to put up with a constant drone of commentary from the mainstream telling you that Australia is different.

As I say, this bombshell from the Federal Reserve proves otherwise. And it proves we’ve been right to call the Aussie banks for what they are.

Maybe our claim about NAB’s system shutdown last week being caused by a solvency problem rather than a computer glitch still seems crazy to you. But we wonder, after reading today’s Money Morning, perhaps it now sounds just slightly less crazy than you first thought…

And furthermore, it must surely make you wonder what else it is the government and central bankers are keeping secret. Most of which will probably never be revealed.

All you and I can do is use our scepticism and questioning brain to figure out what’s really happening. Because more often than not, the story the mainstream peddles is as far from the truth as you can get.

Yesterday’s revelation from the US Federal Reserve about NAB’s and Westpac’s secret loans is a perfect example. We look forward to getting a reply from the RBA, ASX and APRA about how much they knew and when…

But we won’t hold our breath.


Kris Sayce
For Money Morning Australia

Money Morning is Australia’s most outspoken financial news service. Your Money Morning editorial team are not afraid to tell it like it is. From calling out politicians to taking on the housing industry, our aim is to cut through the hype and BS to help you make sense of the stories that make a difference to your wealth. Whether you agree with us or not, you’ll find our common-sense, thought provoking arguments well worth a read.

Money Morning Australia is published by Port Phillip Publishing, an independent financial publisher based in Melbourne, Australia. As an Australian financial services license holder we are subject to the regulations and laws of Corporations Act and Financial Services Act.

160 responses to “NAB and Westpac’s Secret Bailout Revealed

  1. Hi All,

    Does anyone know (approximately) what precent of the total housing stock is spent on maintenance, renovating and re-building residential properties in any one year? Following on from that, is it fair to subtract this precent from quoted house-price index movements to get an idea of real changes in the value of an investment?

    And finally when comparing the performance of residential property to shares, does property have an advantage because of the point raised above, or does it work the same way for shares?


  2. So I just sold my house & am going to rent and wait for the housing market to soften a little (hopefully a lot). Question is I have around $340,000 to put away & I was going to put it in Ubank saver as interest rates are great. Ubank being baked by Nab now doesn’t seem such a good thing if they are possibly insolvent?? Is the reason Ubank offering such high interest because they need to raise more capital as NAB are in trouble? Hmmmm

    I don’t want to risk my lifes savings. Government gaursntee only good for another few months…. Thoughts??

  3. Drew – you have a very good point – a house purchased for $400,000 that has $50,000 spent in upgrading etc really needs to get a selling price of $450,000 or more to break even.

    Hedonic indexes take that into account, but raw data doesn’t.

  4. Well your NAB glitch interpretation definitely sounds less crazy now. Glitch or not, banks seem prone to recurring liquidity problems. Which is strange, given that their job is to manage risks, identify and fix such problems well ahead of time. Wonder what bank shareholders are paying their ceos for? Ditto shareholders of REITs.

  5. PF@3,
    Nonsense. Hedonic indexes can be constructed to include any characteristics one desires. It would be entirely possible to create a regression based on home improvements.

  6. Hail Kris. As more and more once secret information comes out it does become clearer indeed. The latest “scoop” from NASA about finding alien life on earth as a headline amongst all the financial mess headlines of the recent years brought to mind the following quote from David Korten’s book When Corporations Rule the World:

    “As corporations gain in autonomous institutional power and become more detached from people and place, the human interest and the corporate interest increasingly diverge. It is almost as though we were being invaded by alien beings intent on colonizing our planet, reducing us to serfs, and then excluding as many of us as possible.”

    The above also fits well with Lisa’s observation;
    “We do live in a world where some people do not put other peoples’ interest first.”

    That my dear Lisa is because those same people are aliens, we have lost the human part of being…

  7. DC – In the previous thread you posted a link to Brother Nathanael’s take on the new US Food Bill. This bill is an outrage. Dictating and micromanaging farmers’s decisions like this is most tyrannical and can only be a recipe for disaster down the track. Controlling the food supply like this is fascist and dictatorial for starters, no ifs or buts about it, and regardless of what one might think of Brother Nathanael’s Biblical interpretation of it with reference to the “mark of the beast” in Revelations.

    Here is the link again, but first a quick note to PF:
    Notice again that, as with the TSA’s tyrannical security and harassment procedures, Zionist Jews are prominent among this outrageous push to control food production in the US. It is these sorts of blatant grabs at power and control that gets up people’s noses, and is not going to have a pretty outcome in the long run. These are only two examples of how the bastards are soiling their own nests, so people pushing back and trying to expose the rotten, sickness of their ideology can only be expected.

    And if you can help yourself and not go off on another rant of anti-samitism BS, I would like to know your take on these matters. How do you think about them? Do you share the concerns some of us here have? I am not asking or expecting you to have the same degree of concern as expressed by BroN, but I think that hardly anyone, let alone those on the land and engaged in primary production, would be unconcerned about these sorts of legislative moves and the extension of more and more control and regulation about food production. Anyhow, here is the link again.

    Food Bill’s Mark Of The Beast

  8. Drew, I am in a rush, but what occured to me is that the only reliable apples with apples comparison would be a comparison of land values over time. Comparing dwellings, or the improvements, is frought with all sorts of messy impossibilities with the change in quality, materials, average sizes, etc., over time. For example, to be a little outlandish, should an asbestos fibro house be valued the same as one of the same size with plywood or some other materials in the walls?

    In any case, it is only the land that is supposed to be regarded as an appreciating asset. Even the taxman concedes that the improvements are a depreciating liability.

  9. Back to the topic on Banksters and other “financial institutions”… It is only through the analysis by minds like Kris Sayce, and their persistance, determination and belief in what their research confirms that the truth will out…

    On that note I feel that WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, deserve praise and support for their courage in publishing documents showing immoral and criminal activity by ‘trusted officials’… I await with eager anticipation for the release of bankster leaks… see,3.msg5241.html#msg5241 – it starts about there…

    I dig stuff up from wherever it can be found… google “Lies and Witchcraft” for the thread… I try to keep it a bit rabid, looking for bites and debate…

  10. Seriously guys???????????

    The revelation of the year about banks and your reaction is so serene.

    I expected a lot more commentary to be going on!!!

  11. BRW (Nov 25 – Dec 1) hasn’t heard yet Kris. In the cover story Westpac is 7th most respected company around.
    ‘Westpac’s reputation was bolstered by its financial strength during the global financial crisis. It had little exposure to highly leveraged debt and its domestic focus meant it fared better as the Australian economy outperformed other economies in the Western world both during and on the way out of the financial crisis.
    Damon Frith’

  12. This is what I have been talking about. When enough information gets out to the populace it is only then that change can happen.

    When a certain element use every attempt of belittlement and ridicule, who makes the ridiculous statement that “there is no bloody conspiracy”, that they know better than the law of physics, to make false accusations of racism just so that they can squash all debate that attempts to reveal the truth, is either brain dead or a sinister supporter of the culprits.

    However, the message IS getting out there in many arenas and, as a result the big boys are starting to hurt.

    I warned about the “Swine Flu scam” ages ago. They overstocked with the false “SAARS epidemic scam” to make a truckload of money, then thought they would have another bash at it with the “Swine Flue” epidemic scam. However, after SAARS, many, of whom I supported, got the message out and the “take-up” of this scam was nowhere near as great, in fact it failed big time.

    This is just one small example of the BS that is being spun. “Orthodox Medicine” has its merits and those who seek better advancement in health acknowledge that fact because they seek to better human health in the safest way possible.

    However, it doesn’t work the other way around i.e. Orthodox medicine does not support anything other than itself as there sole interest is to make money, not improve health. They are owned by the cartels. Just like climate change “scientists”.

    It’s a shame this money wasn’t spent on more hospital facilities…..and this is only the beginning of the story.

  13. “The truth is out there” as Mulder used to say — and you found it. A great find, indeed.

  14. “But this is Australia – we’re different!”

    “Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oi Oi Oi!”

    Hahaha! :D:D:D

  15. “Problem, Reaction, Solution: Derivatives, Crash, Too Big To Fail, Bailout, Nationalization, Budget Crisis, Privatization, Debt Slavery, Austerity, Evaporating Pensions, Central Banks, Big Government, World Government. It’s been quite a saga, but this economic crisis has been planned sabotage by design. The age of the Offshore Global Cartel is the age of economic warfare with the wealthy Western world. The 3rd World has largely already been brought to its knees. The remaining vestiges of national sovereignty must be eliminated and the middle class consumer society must be swept back to the feudal age by way of a tidal wave looting of living standards, cut wages & pensions, and the bread and circuses of cheap plastic goods and entertainment. The upper middle classes, the array of independent businesses, remaining lone giants and other true competition to the New World Order mafia economy system must be consolidated or dominated.

    … explains why it is the bankers or us will be free at the end of this crisis. The total cost of the derivatives is over $1.5 Quadrillion, a sum that will completely consume the world in perpetual debt, a sum that can never be repaid. It is an economic shearing, a shearing of the sheep. The economic crisis has always really been a complete transfer of power to the banking class.”

  16. Hey CB!!

    My wife just got me to watch that video — WOW — its like all the pieces falling together quite nicely (or not so nicely) – in fact, it is so blatant and so rampant that it just blows my mind that people continue to deny the reality of it!

    The 3rd world has had this bullshit for decades — and now the “developed world” gets to be molested by these bastards!

    I hope the catcus that is used has the girth of a dinner plate!!!!


  17. Beauner….read my text…”there’s no bloody conspiracy”!! what part of that don’t you understand??…hmm…. Gawd you kiwis are slow!!!

  18. Nick! > Kiwi’s, slow?? 😀

    Did you not watch any of the Rugby that was played during the year gone by???? Hahaha!!

    I can think of a few Aussies who are slow….some within very close proximity to us, right now! 😀

    Nah mate – im caught up with this — helps when you have had crazy end-times theories drilled into your head for most of your life….thing I was missing was the pieces — I do know, though…that in the end….Truth wins…..its just gonna be a bit messy in the meantime.

    You know what? I think im just gonna go back and watch Home and Away, while reading my Herald Sun, and maybe watch some Fox News….I hear they are playing the official 9/11 doco again….because we all know…if its on the News, and the Government says its the truth – well darn it, it must be BULLSHIT!


  19. Yes, Beauner. This is the man PF has just declared to be a fruitloop.
    DC – I credit Cooper for figuring out the lay of the land, and even though this man might not have given him sufficient credit for it, I salute him for keeping alive Cooper’s legacy. Cooper has not lived, and died, in vain. Make sure to watch the video:

    It’s The Bankers Or Us

  20. Beauner…many people run with the “end time” thing and I don’t doubt that the “original author” was genuine. That’s why they nailed him to a lump of wood for his efforts. Not unlike today with those who want the truth to be known.

    However, as always, those who have had nil experience in any form human misery and horror are the ones who knock and mock the most. So predictable it’s a joke.

    I’ve given you my pattern of preparation thanks to a lifetime of exposure to those who could tell me first hand of how it all works.

    You are correct in saying..”its just gonna be a bit messy in the meantime.” but don’t be concerned , the world’s not going to end, just the bullshit and those who spin it.

    cb…can put it better that me, but if you can, buy some gold and/or silver. It’s going to be a wild ride.

  21. cb…since when has your title been downgraded to “Mr”. I thought it was “Sir”!!?

  22. cb @ 7 – sorry cb, but I still believe that the zionist references are just thinly disguised attacks on jews. There may be a group of ultra right wing jews who will go to extremes, why would Israel be any different to any other nation, but I simply don’t buy your attempts to suggest that jews are behind all that is ill with the world, that theory is merely a variation of hansonism.

    It would be nice to be able to blame all of the ills of the world onto one group, but the world just isn’t that simple.

    I regard your views as dangerous, they have been tried before on many occasions, and every time it ends up in a disaster because the supporters of that viewpoint are simply wrong, and that is a tragedy in itself.

    I guess that you and Nick (and others) can’t shake off the intellectual shackles of your heritage just yet, but I hope that in the course of time you will get over your irrational bigotry.

  23. PF – Congratulations! You win! I have been a frequent visitor to this forum for the past 2 years and I must tell you that I didn’t think anything of you or your line of commentary but I kept my mouth shut. However following your comment’s at 26 which in and of themselves were offensive but more-so because the sentiment they delivered were sincerely your own and indicate who and what you really are.

    You no longer exist and I will without exception ignore any and all of your future posts.

  24. Okay, PF. You stay true to form. I suppose you can’t help it. I will not bother you with it anymore. I will simply note the fact that Zionist criminals are heading up most of these scams, one after the other, is of absolutely no significance in your view. I, for one, disagree, but of course there is nothing new in that.

    But for the record, not all the world’s evils are rooted in Zionism.
    Of course not. But many are rooted in elitist, supremacist and oppressive ideologies, ideologies that elevate a certain class or group of people by fair means or foul, above those who do not belong to this club. Zionism is but one such ideology, and the people behind it, or supporting it, are also the people who are developing all these scams that are crashing economies, reduce nations to debt peonage, and subject ordinary people to horrendous and authoritarian treatment.

    Also for the record, Stalinism was not less dangerous or disgusting, or Naziism for that matter, al0ng with loads of other isms, including Maoism. But you do not hear me saying these things, it seems. You think that I am only saying these things to disguise my anti-semitism. You only hear me denounce dictatorships when I have Zionism under the gun, and this is what you regard to be dangerous.

    But you are wrong. What is dangerous is what these criminals are doing. It is not what I or some other nutter says that is going to get them undone, but the moral and criminal debt that they are taking on through their remorseless actions, because, metaphysically speaking, that heavy burden of karmic debt one day will have to be repaid. So, the danger is in what these people are doing, not in what us whinging plebs are saying, although one would hope that enough whingeing might just bring them to their senses.

    But who knows? Maybe this time it will be different. Maybe this time they are going to return us into a new state of feudalism. Maybe, but anyone betting on it would have to be mad. Come to think of it, the bastards ARE mad. They are suicidal.

  25. PF, you said to me:

    “I regard your views as dangerous, they have been tried before on many occasions, and every time it ends up in a disaster because the supporters of that viewpoint are simply wrong, and that is a tragedy in itself.”

    – I say, you spin. WTF are you talking about?
    – What are these dangerous views supposed to be?
    – Aren’t I arguing against oppression, against elitist ideology, against one group of people being permitted to live out its extremist, elitist belief system at the expense of the total dehumanisation of another?
    – Aren’t I arguing against the imposition on the world’s people and nations a most undemocratic, unelelected, NWO bureaucracy?
    – Aren’t I arguing for the rule of law and universal human rights being respected, irrespective of race or religion?
    – And if I speak up against an ideology, or its supporters, is it not always BECAUSE they are seeking to dominate and impose their will and conception of the Good on others?
    – And when I speak up as such, is it not always because of the oppression and the exploitation I see them plan and perpetrate on innocent, gullible, vulnerable, and generally hapless people?

    So, once again, WTF are you talking about?

  26. cb @ 15 – so Alex Jones/Willian Cooper are saying the global crissis was engineered which lends credence to the global conspiracy theory that the entire financial crisis was a well prepared game plan designed a long time ago and that the global elite are entirely in control of every step.

    Bob Chapman on the other hand thinks that they are really not that smart, have only a few limited moves – false flags that are becoming less effective as the sheeple awaken – what is happening according to Bob is more of an organic decline that smacks of desperation as more time goes by. This would suggest that the global financial looting was just a natural part of the rats having a final feed before they jump ship.

    Which is true?

  27. lol, Nick @ 23 – it must be a demotion I have suffered at a secret meeting I have not been invited to … but it’s no biggie, it must have been just another one of those conspiracies 🙂

  28. Well cb you did invite comment, and I think I gave you my views honestly and without any dramatics.

    I don’t have a problem with anti elitist thoughts, but must you choose to define people by their race or religious beliefs.

    Is that entitrely necessary?

  29. dc – I would say that both are correct, except for this part that “the global elite are entirely in control of every step.” So far so good, I would say, but Bob Chapman is the oldest fox in the pack, and he is the one that sees furthest. Bob Chapman has also been saying that the new international reserve currency is gold, only those still in control refuse to admit it. You see what I mean? For Chapman, the inevitable future is as good, and real, as the present. The inevitability that they are going to lose control means that they do not have control of what they have planned and started.

    Think of a mad, suicidal engine driver and his crew. They have fired up the engine, sabotaged the controls and the brakes, determined to have the ride of their lives on what has by now become a runaway train. Chapman says that, while the band is still playing, they are all toast. (pun intended)

  30. PF – I will make a confession: Oftentimes enough, I am at two minds about it. The content of the belief system appears to be one of the key drivers behind the ideology, part of the psychology that frames actions justification by reference to some divinely sanctioned mission and moral superiority, based and rooted in the belief system of which religion appears to be an inextricable part.

    Even so, the criminals in question, are clearly violating the fundamental tenets of the religion, which often leads me to agree with others with cultural and religious authority on these matters that these criminals are simply HIDING behind a facade of the religion.

    So, it is hard, very hard, to disentangle the ideology from the religion, and then further, to identify and expose the criminals when they keep shielding themselves against exposure and criticism by seeking the protection of their religious affiliation. I wish I had a better bag of conceptual tools at my disposal to make the very fine distinctions required, but I am mindful of the issue and hopefully I will one day get the right solution for it.

    Actually, I am quite conscious of how Alex Jones, for example, deals with the issue, so my thinking about the most fair and effective categorisations is still evolving, and is by no means fixed. But, as I said, I do believe that ideology, the belief system is the driver behind what many of these criminals are doing, the way they do business, the way they act in concert, etc., so the rotten ideology has to be given an identifier for starters, and Zionism seems to be the most fitting. I am open, however, to alternative suggestions.

  31. cb – yes the signs are there, no doubt they would love nothing better than to take control of the world and implement their one world government. It would not be surprising if they’d been planning it for a long time. On the other hand they’re meglomaniacs and while very clever, a bit delusional, which power can do to you I suppose

  32. @ Beauner – what do you call an Aussie that dribbles out of both sides of his mouth at the same time?

    Level headed………………………….

  33. cb @ 34 – I think that in your rush to accept virtually any conspiracy story you have allowed yourself to become a tool of those who have less than worthy ideals.

    I urge you to reconsider some of the unconvincing “truths” that you have recently embraced.

    The world has gone through a painful experience, and as is the custom with human beings we immediately look for someone to blame, and often that process is just as fraudulent as the original cause itself.

    Don’t make the mistake of choosing a scapegoat of convenience. I am stunned at times at how readily many here blindly accept someone elses agenda without any in depth thought on the matter.

  34. The world has just gone through a painful experience?

    What? A “credit crunch”? Big bloody deal!

    What about the 3rd world? They have been going through a “painful experience” for DECADES! Is it entirely their fault? What about the countless wars being waged in the name of “whatever” at the expense of the innocent?

    The same pricks that engineered our “painful experience” has engineered the 3rd world’s “painful experience”……

    There are no random events. 😀

  35. The pricks would be those who control the money supply, along with their institutions of slavery.

  36. Also, those in positions of power who exert their will and their agenda to the detriment of others.

  37. PF, you said:

    “Don’t make the mistake of choosing a scapegoat of convenience. I am stunned at times at how readily many here blindly accept someone elses agenda without any in depth thought on the matter.”

    Who is talking conspiracy now? You keep making these generalised assertions against observable evidence, logic and reason. Who has an agenda here? What is that agenda? Who are the ones who blindly accept that agenda? Specifics, please!!!!

  38. PF, you also said:

    “I think that in your rush to accept virtually any conspiracy story you have allowed yourself to become a tool of those who have less than worthy ideals.”

    Now, why would I be in a rush to accept any conspiracy story? That just doesn’t make sense. A thinking person for whom official stories do not make sense, who sees corruption, blatant scams, exploitation, and the willfull erosion of human rights and freedoms, will attempt to think for themselves and will seek to construct a better understanding of what is happening and why. Else, he is but an unthinking sheep amongst the sheeple. What you appear to be saying is that, so as not to ” become a tool of those who have less than worthy ideals,” I should just stop thinking and searching for a better, more plausible understanding of events large and small, and just swallow ridiculous hogwash explanations for those events by conflicted interests through the MSM.

    You are saying to me, effectively, that when my understanding conflicts with official, nonsense and clearly false explanations, I should trust these explanations over my own judgement.

    Do you not realise how ludicrous and ridiculous your proposition is?

  39. PF @ 40 – Mate, you have to get out more and educate yourself a little.
    May I suggest that you start with the work of some credible insiders who have come in from the cold and told their stories of how the third world has been done over by bankers and the corporations that have grown up around them. The work of John Perkins would be an eminently useful place to start. See here:

  40. Who cares who they are, Peter.

    They could be Jews, Greeks, Irish, Americans, English, Rwandan or maybe a bunch of radical Maoris!

    Players come and go but Power always finds a place to rest its head.

  41. But may I suggest, just once again, that you have no interest in learning and knowing an alternative view of reality. And why would that be, we must ask? Based on your performance in these discussions, my best guress would be that it is because in fact it is YOU who has an agenda, the agenda of selling hogwash to all willing and gullible takers and dismissing, denying and discrediting any alternative explanations to the hogwash and horse sh!t being offered for public consumption to keep the sheeple ignorant and indolent concerning the things that affect their lives.

    But, however that might be, here is Perkins’s official site for those who want to kick around a few rocks and pebbles in search of a better, more realistic understanding of the world and its events than what you are being fed by MSM and PF:

  42. I’ll wager that I could make up a story about midgets on skate boards taking over the world via subversive means and plots, upload it to a website, and you guys would take it all on board in a heartbeat.

    Sometimes it is quite funny, but mainly it is so predictable.

  43. So the IMF, the Fed, the fraudulent banking system etc….these are all figments of my imagination?

  44. Hahaha! This is actually not that different to a discussion on theology between Trinitarians and Unitarians… 😀

  45. And see this one, the testimony of a deeply honourable and modest man, and as we now know, a dying man who speaks his truth based on his God given reason and personal experience. PF suggests that in order to avoid becoming instruments of people with less than admirable agendas, we should disregard such testimonies in favour of hogwash explanations, even though these explanations are being contradicted by mounting stacks of evidence and simply do not make sense:
    Reflections And Warnings – An Interview With Aaron Russo {Full Film}

  46. PF @ 50 – Once again, you are staying true to form. Having run out of arguments in response to the challenges you are given, you resort to ridicule and ridiculous accusations. But how about we take you up on that proposition. Since you at it, might as well make an even greater fool of yourself than you have done up to this point, so here is your self-suggested challenge:

    Make up the story and let’s see how many of us here are going to fall for it!!! Go on, Do it.

  47. hahahaaaa, PF, you are now outdoing yourself @ 51. It is a rare treat that you try to make others ridiculous with one of your chosen sites, which in fact happen to be representative of the level of intelligence you bring to these discussions, and the level of intelligence to which you are trying to reduce our conversations in this forum. I will not speak for others, but your reference here is one of the best demonstrations of the laughable joke you happen to be. .

  48. Q – why do the elite hate the middle class?
    A – cause we remind them that they’re parasites! lol

    This and many more razor sharp insights are revealed in this interview between Alex Jones and Stefam Molyneux

    No matter what you think about Alex Jones, you have to admit his show is certainly helping to circulate some fresh new views. This is most interesting.

    Stefan Molyneux: The Nature of Human Society on This Planet – Alex Jones

  49. In the US, a group of senators has introduced a bill known as the Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act (Coica) that aims to expand the American government’s power over domain names. If passed, the bill would allow the US government to shut down domains that are managed in the US (.com and .net domains, for example) and demand that American ISPs not connect users to domains administered elsewhere in the world.

    As its name implies, Coica is being peddled as a solution for combating the sale of counterfeit goods online. However, if granted the ability to seize and censor domains at whim, one imagines that the American government might be tempted to use its newfound ability for other purposes – including suppressing sensitive documents like those made available by WikiLeaks.

  50. Hi DC….I’ve heard that the bill gives them the power to shut down websites ANYWHERE in the world, not just America.

    That was from Demonoid….

  51. Hey Beauner,

    that’s interesting, but I can’t see how that would be right. How could US legislation be enforced in other parts of the world? I’d have thought you’d be able to simply register with a domain manager in some other company to get around it.

  52. @ dc comment 62 “How could US legislation be enforced in other parts of the world?”
    You should get up close and personal with US style Free Trade Agreements – Australia signed up for one on 18 May 2004. The following is from Gangs of America by Ted Nace (highly recommended).

    “The regional agreements provide powerful new global rights for corporations – legal mechanisms that allow a corporation based in one country to overturn the laws or judicial decisions of a different country. In 1987, two international corporate rights (national treatment and minimum standard of treatment) came into being with the ratification of the FTA. When that agreement was subsumed into NAFTA, it added a third corporate right (compensation for regulatory takings).
    The right of national treatment, defined by NAFTA’s Article 1102, requires that governments treat foreign corporations as favorably as domestic ones”.

    I dont know the full outline of coica or to what extent free trade agreements have been structured to include current or future legislation but there is potential that if the US taps the current independent elected Ozzie gov on the shoulder and says we want these websites stopped because they are affecting our businesses then guess whose plug gets pulled out of the socket – wont be the US corps.
    And just to put the icing on the cake the final quote from Ted Nace:
    “NAFTA’s corporate rights are stronger than those available to corporations through the rules of the 144-member World Trade Organisation (WTO). Although the WTO allows government to challenge the domestic laws of another government, NAFTA allows a corporation to sue a foreign government directly in response to a law, a regulation, or even a court decision in that government’s sovereign domain. Such challenges are considered by secret arbitration boards that do not allow any public participation”.

  53. dc – ah, they do whatever they want. If the leadership of the two countries are in bed with ecah other, or both their handlers work out of Tel Aviv, then national boundaries mean zilch. Just look at the way Australian citizenship meant absolutely nothing while Habib and Hicks were rotting in an unconstitutional US detention centre. Where was their right to a timely and fair trial? In the same way, Assange, unless protected by the Soros faction, or someone similar, will be thrown under the bus before he can ask ‘what was that?’.

  54. Thanks, earlwag….And so is the function of the WTO….when you sign, you are giving your trading partner the right to exert its Laws into your sovereign territory….hence, the ability of the US, or US corporations enabled to exert their authority into other sovereign territories.

    It’s much, MUCH more than trading commodities…. 😀

  55. Beauner …@48… I noticed you were smart enough to leave out Australians. However, you DID mention Greeks…that concerns me!

  56. Hey Nick….how the hell could I forget the Aussies….forget Zionists or midgets…..its the bloody Aussies! But hey, they have to be good at something…..can’t play Rugby, Netball, League…hell, even got rejected for the host of Soccer! 😀

    I thought you might have liked the Greek mention! 😀

  57. Thanks for your comments earlwag, cb and Nick, to be honest I struggle to get my head around all these global organisations like FTA, NAFTA, WTO, etc.. but the fact that they are about more controll/power/domination/bullying/etc on a global scale does not surprise me.. I think I see the picture

  58. With regard to the projection of corporate power across national boundaries, Thomas Jefferson’s famous quote comes to mind. Note that he warned, not only about the private banks, but also about the corporations that will grow up around them, who borrow from the banks and put the money created by those banks to all sorts of uses to scam and rob the people of the fruit of their labour and wealth.

    From this point of view, what is starting to emerge from this discussion for me is that the various international treaties and agreements have been put in place by the politicians to aid and facilitate the multinationals who want to be answerable to, or restricted by, no one. They have largely succeeded, too, in having an open season on raiding, looting, and gutting entire national economies through their financial shenanigans. And to the extent that our politicians are facilitating these robber barrons, they are traitors to the people whose interests they are supposed to serve.

    “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies… The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

  59. dc…the more you search, the more the fog lifts.
    Now you have become an honorary “nutter”…welcome aboard.

    Beauner…enjoy your gloating…LOL..I think we do OK in Ping Pong..I’ll check!!

  60. Good link, dc. We will figure it out. It will just take a while, as our Mr Assange is a little slippery and shadowy character. Not everything seems right with him, to be sure. If he is indeed associated with the Rothschilds, then that would fit in well with the hypothesis we considered earlier that Soros was his main funder and handler, because Soros himself is a Rothschild man.

    All the same, while the circus goes on, Wikileaks is one channel through we get more and more pieces out into the open for constructing the larger puzzle. Some of it may be misinformation, but with a little work and patience we are going to be able to mark the pieces that do not fit as suspicious.

  61. Hey DC….here is the information I read regarding the COICA >

    November 12, Update:

    The Senate Judiciary Committee has scheduled a markup Nov. 18 on S. 3804, Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act.

    Remember to contact your representatives to let them know your opinion on the proposed bill. To find out who are the senators on your state and their contact information, you can visit the U.S. Senate website, by clicking here
    In the United States, a new law proposal called The Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act (COICA) was introduced last week, and there will be a hearing in front of the Judiciary Committee this Thursday.

    If passed, this law will allow the government, under the command of the media companies, to censor the internet as they see fit, like China and Iran do, with the difference that the sites they decide to censor will be completely removed from the internet and not just in the US.

    Please see the following article from the Huffington Post for more information.

    Stop the Internet Blacklist

    And if you are a US citizen, please take the time to sign this petition – Petition to Stop the Internet Blacklist!

    Update: Also for US citizens, you can email your Senator from the following link and tell him or her your concerns about this bill

    Tell Your Senator: No Website Blacklists, No Internet Censorship!

    Update, from EFF’s website: the Senate Judiciary Committee postponed the scheduled markup of the Internet censorship bill — a fantastic outcome, given that the entertainment industry and their allies in Congress had hoped this bill would be quickly approved before the Senators went home for the October recess. Massive thanks to all who used the EFF Action Center to write to your Senators to oppose this bill.

  62. dc – A quote from the article you referenced:

    “If Assange were a real activist, he would not be getting any coverage from the mainstream media, let alone so headlines every day in every well known corporate media outlet. The alleged hide and seek between Assange and the US government as well as Interpol is played out on the theatrical stage of the world’s media when it is well known the US government and Interpol can arrest anyone they want virtually any time they want given their immense resources.”

    Signs such as this mark our Assange package as “suspicious,” and hence he stays on our “Watch List.” Even so, whatever information they may release to do in rival factions will remain of interest. By contrast, as with Fitch, anything that PF cares to say here goes straight onto my “Discard List.”

    Sorry, PF, no offence meant, but in my books you have burned through all your credibility credits, and your “Benefit of the Doubt” card has also been shreaded.

  63. “Russia on a gold buying spree
    After China and India, it is the turn of Russia to go on a gold buying spree. As gold prices climb and nations around the world try to amass gold to add weight to their foreign exchange reserves, the yellow metal is turning to be the hot asset for governments and investors.

    A new data from the World Gold Council (WGC) says that Russia has buying gold bullion in the last few months. India and several other countries have been on a gold buying task in the last few months. ”

  64. cb…..”Soros & Murdoch….are co-players…will sit at the same table on regular occasion…” “in general….no dispute at this level is made in public….all for show”

  65. Nick, that is interesting. And you do not consider the revelations to be damning? Isn’t Soros risking too much for the show? And what are they proposing to achieve through this show?

    A while back I seem to have had the impression that Soros was damaging Murdoch’s businesses by interfering with his advertising revenue, etc., and that Murdoch was hitting back at Soros through Beck. What do you know?

  66. cb….passed it by someone who is in a far better capacity than all of us to make comment. The quotes given was as said to me.
    Will delve a little deeper as the opportunity arises.

  67. Sorry, I was heading out as I posted..

    Nick – thanks….. I think lol
    although I didn’t search too hard for that one, it just popped up on my twitter feed lol it’s funny because this source was pro Wikileaks in the past, so it’s the last thing I expected.

    Beauner – Cheers mate, so the senate postponed the bill? it’ll come back you can be sure.
    They’re sneaky, they’ll drop it for a while and then try creep it back in later when people have forgotten about it

    cb – “If Assange were a real activist, he would not be getting any coverage from the mainstream media”
    my running theory is that nobody speaking out about the establishing appears in the media by accident and so far it’s been a pretty reliable guide. If they’re getting coverage from the mainstream media then it’s a huge red flag

    PF – I was not claiming a particular theory. I don’t know much about Assange personally, but WikiLeaks seemed a bit suspect from the start. Now that this information is getting out more people will start waking up to the game. I think it’s only a matter of time to be honest

  68. dc @ 98 – then because assange gets some airplay, he is not the real deal, but if he hadn’t got any air play he would have been the real deal.

    Is that the assessment?

  69. No, PF, you are trying to twist things again. The assessment is that we don’t know whether he is as independent as he presents himself to be, and that therefore we will keep an eye on him. Otherwise, he is real allright. We just don’t know WHO he works for. But we will figure it out.

  70. “This morning, Alex said Governor Jesse Ventura and found that he fully aware of the fact that the “police state” was pulled because of pressure within the government.
    Whatever the cause for the full-pressure, it is clear that the government does not want the public to FEMA camps and fusion centers, or search for HR 645, to discuss the bill and read the name of the episode that authorizations Emergency Center of emergencies. ”

  71. “The fact than an establishment lackey like Speaker-apparent John Boehner would fight against those in Congress attempting to challenge the power of the Federal Reserve is no surprise, but Boehner’s reported attempt to block Ron Paul from gaining the chair of a key subcommittee dealing with monetary policy is absolutely disgusting. Ron Paul has proven to be the grassroots favorite with the people, has repeatedly won GOP-straw polls for president, and no doubt played a significant role in winning tea party support for GOP candidates during the midterm elections. But he is being blocked precisely because he poses a threat to the Federal Reserve and establishment power in general.

    John Boehner, on the other hand, is little more than a Newt Gingrich-acolyte who uses the conservative-name of the Republican party to uphold the false two-party paradigm while expanding big government. Thus, in another fight for a real voice in the Federal Government, the Alex Jones Show has initiated another search term to draw attention to this unfair inner-party tactic against Ron Paul. Please search “John Boehner Scam” and contact his office to demand that he cease this blatant attempt to silence the will of the people by rendering either Ron Paul or the subcommittee he would head virtually powerless.

    As Bloomberg’s Business Week just reported, John Boehner is said to be working behind the scenes to prevent Ron Paul from gaining any new Congressional power over monetary policy”

  72. cb @ 102 – I have just watched that Alex Jones tape, and then I watched a Jesse Ventura tape – wow those guys are absolute fruit cakes.

    Are they taking some sort of chemicals for social reasons.

    Ventura talks about a “death ray” that allows the government to control our minds, if they are doing that it doesn’t seem to be a very effective means of control. Are these links that you readily provide for real, or are you taking the mickey out of all of us?

  73. ‘Death Ray’ technologies – while sounding ridiculously improbable -have been around for quite some time PF. Didn’t you hear about Samual Cohen’s passing?
    Do you really think the US military destroyed this type of technology? Do you think it unlikely that they have not further advanced the technology ready for a time when a nation that has vast numerical military superiority threatens their world dominance and attempts to bind them into decades of economic serfdom? After China has finished building all their new infrastructure of course.

  74. PF – DC will have his own swing at you, no doubt, when he gets online. I just pulled you up on another lame attempt at distorting what we discussed and said regarding how Assange’s credibility will be best decided.

  75. bb @ 112 – I don’t doubt that there are rays capable of wrecking death or destruction, but a ray that changes our opinions and ideas without us suspecting seems an extraordinary claim.

    Do you have any evidence of this? I haven’t seen any credible sources or logical information on this.

    Sorry cb but I wasn’t addressing you.

  76. Another sign of tyranny’s steady advancement in the US. Make sure to watch the video at the link to get a good feel for it.

    “There can be no doubt whatsoever that Homeland Security has engaged in political witch hunts against Americans critical of big government. Earlier this year, Big Sis was caught spying on Tea Party groups as well as State Representative Daryl Metcalfe.

    The TSA itself has also listed journalists critical of its policies as potential terrorists, ostensibly as a punishment and a warning to other reporters that if they broadcast anything negative about the agency then they will be bracketed together with Al-Qaeda members and be forced to endure copious amounts of hassle and harassment every time they wish to fly.”

  77. cb – how could you “pull me up” when I didn’t pass comment on Assange, I merely asked dc a question on why he arrived at a certain conclusion.

  78. PF – You are free to look away at the sight of any of my posts. But if you want to play this silly little game, then simply ask, and I will not address you in my comments. Just don’t think that thereby your spin is going to be quaranteed against criticism and exposure. I can just as easily address my comments to others in the discussion. Stop sulking.

  79. PF @ 117 – Well, the way I looked at it was that we had a discussion about Assange, and the point was made that the degree of exposure his activities and fate receive in the captured MSM is relevant to assessging his allegiences and affiliations. No firm conclusions were drawn either way, but there was agreement that the factor in question was relevant to the way in which firmer conclusions might be arrived at, though clearly not the only factor.

    By contrast, your framing of the quesion to DC was leading and prejudicial in its assumption that the test was going to be somehow decisive in its application, when nothing of the sort was suggested in the discussion. It is relevant, not decisive on its own, and therefore your framing of it looked to me like a devious trap that invited the unwary into looking implausible and ridiculous. You probably will deny this, but it is on public record for everyone to see and make up their minds about it.

  80. cb @ 115 – If I use the usual criteria I would say that link of yours was to MSM – therefore it is probably planted misinformation designed to lead us in the wrong direction, so clearly the TSA “isn’t’ doing that at all.

    Clearly a zionist plot. I’m starting to get the hang of this alternate view.

  81. cb @ 118 – I think that was one of your best ever posts. What on earth did it mean though.

    You point to your own posts. Do we have some sort of arabic notation phobia happening here?

  82. cb @ 119 – again you reference your own post and answer a question I did not ask.

    Either there is something happening in numeric recording of posts, or one of us is developing a serious disorder.

  83. PF – You are being ridiculous. Information comes in all shapes and forms and through many channels, including the MSM. One has to evaluate and assess the credibility of any piece of information in light of one’s existing information base and God given reason. No information source, main stream, or alternate, can, or should be assumed to be fail proof, so once again, you are spinning a mickey mouse argument and line of reasoning to discredit people, based on no more than the fact that they are suspicious of MSM.

  84. PF – You appear to have fallen foul of the same trick of the numbers at 121. Obviously, it is an unstable world, where even numbers cannot be trusted. Clear evidence of conspiracy being all around us, don’t you think?

  85. cb @ 123 – how do i know that your sudden acceptance of MSM is real now that the mind altering ray has hit you.

    this is a tragic event – now I don’t know if this is the new you or the old you talking.

    Damn that mind altering ray….

  86. PF – Rub your eyes and notice that @ your 128 you were referencing your own 125. How long have YOU been unstable? Love talking to yourself, do you?

  87. And on my computer your so-called 129 came across as 130.

    Actually, I think I have the explanation. Earlier I posted a message that happened to have two links in it, and it is being help up for moderation. I can see it, and it is counted for me, but probably not counted for anyone else, yet.

  88. Not sure if everybody has been following the discussion about Cooper and Jones, but I am simply going to post this clip from a couple of days ago again by Alex Jones. PF says that he has just listened to Jones and Ventura and declared them as confirmed fruit cakes. I beg to disagree. If we look at the evidence, and the way things have been elvolving, it is as clear as daylight that, if anything, the Cooper – Jones storyline is consistent with the facts and quite plausible. However, you judge for yourself.

    It’s the Bankers or Us

  89. cb – I just watched most of that link – It isn’t all that bad really, and there are some truths in it, but what can we in Australia do about what is happening in the USA?

    Also note that our RBA is government owned, whilst their Federal Reserve is owned by the private banks, so what he is saying applies almost exclusively to the USA with their Fed system. Note that the Fed and Treasury are different entities in the USA.

    Stamp your feet by all means, but it won’t do anything. I don’t say that because I think you are wrong, I just consider the action to be in vain.

    Australia is like a small toy boat afloat in someone elses bathtub, and we just have to do our best to weather the conditions that others dictate.

  90. PF – Indeed, you are now steering the conversation onto a most relevant ground. How does it all affect us here?

    From what I can tell, our political leadership is quite happy to keep this country open to the raiders and looters. And if the RBA is indeed owned by the government, then so much for the RBA’s ability or willingness to protect our economy. Ergo, we are exposed to be raided and looted in a similar fashion that the American and European plebs are being looted, and most probably our turn will come. Hence the importance that we wake up to the dangers and take whatever steps we can to protect ourselves. For this, however, we need to get the lay of the land more or less right. We get to know the enemy, or we stand no chance of protecting ourselves against it.

    It is in this context that I think it does make eminent sense to understand why things are happening overseas as they are. Relating it more clearly to our own situation would be equally crucial, and unfortunately we are falling rather short on that front. However, the offshoring of our industries and the free hand we give to hot money speculators do not portend anything promising.

    The super savings of the Yanks and the Europeans have been raided already, and there are more and more signs that schemes and scams are afoot here. This honeypot of money is clearly a target for the money junkies and who knows what isn’t.

  91. And, getting back to Alex Jones’s point about a 1.5 quadrillion dollars of derivatives bets/debts through the world economy, who is going to make good on those bets? Going by past form, it is the tax payers who will be squeezed through untold austerity measures, one after another until they cannot even squeek. Given those realities and what we have already seen, it would be foolish in the extreme to suppose that we are not going to be squeezed in the same way, through the same bets and scams. We already are being squeezed. How many billions have we already lost through the various scams and failures. How much of our super savings is already gone? Did all those losses simply disappear into the ether, or has a large chunk of them found their way into some already fat backpockets? I think it is time to ask these questions and wake up to what is going on, or keep losing more and more of what we have without even understanding what is happening, let alone knowing how to stop it from happening.

    Are you saying that it is all futile? Why?

  92. PF @ 104 – In my view the mainstream media is owned by large interest groups who use it as a tool to push their agendas, so when someone speaks out about those same groups or agendas is given coverage, basic logic would suggest that something is amiss. No this does not only apply to the mainstream media, the same influences are well funded so of course they can interfere in other types of media too including the internet. The difference between the internet compared to television, radio and print media etc, is that it is harder to stop Joe Blogger from posting whatever he likes and get exposure to traffic – at least not yet, otherwise they’d just do it. So sure these same large interests groups have a significant presence on the net too, the difference is that they can’t easily shut down dissenting voices. The best they can do is to hire guys like you to post on forums to spin/distort/discredit views they don’t like. But I’m not sure there are enough fingers to plug the cracks forming in the dam to be honest

  93. cb – quote – “The best they can do is to hire guys like you to post on forums to spin/distort/discredit views they don’t like. – end quote ”

    I wish – I keep checking the mail but nothing from Murdoch as yet.

  94. dc 2 138 – I agree – it is a hoax – Assange will be found dead in an apartment in Europe shortly, except it won’t really be Assange.

    This can be traced back to Yasser Arafat who was a CIA secret agent assassinated by Hamas. The Americans need to cover their tracks in an incident yet to come to light, but it will be soon, and it will be hidden within a future wikileaks mass release.

    The forward planning has been meticulous.

  95. Suha was not involved, and there is no relationship whatsoever with the powerful Husseini family of Jerusaleum.

    Not that anyone has ever suggested otherwise of course.

    Move along folks, nothing to see here. It’s all good.

  96. Nick @ 146 – excellent, I can take it then that you, dc, cb, and everyone else believes that –

    “The worlds intelligence services all, every single one, believes Wikileaks is simply an intelligence agency playing games”

    So you all are as one on this issue. Is that right cb?

  97. PF – That is a quote from an article that dc and I have both posted links to. It does not mean that we have made up our minds about it. The arguments and the details in the article are relevant, however, and will guide and contribute to drawing the most plausible conclusions in light of whatever further evidence emerges in due course of time.

    What we have up to this point a fair few red flags that mark Assange’s associations and support base out for suspicion. We also have a number of suggestions and theories that seek to contruct coherent stories out of the available evidence. With the passage of time, as more and more evidence emerges, some of those theories will be strenghthened and others will be weakened byfresh evidence. Slowly by surely, we will figure it out. So, have patience. What’s the rush?

  98. cb – both dc and Nick seem to be going with that hypothesis – have you thought this through, surely the ultimate proof is no proof at all under this alternate thinking “everything is a conspiracy” theory.

    Infamy – infamy – everyones got in in for me.

  99. Its great to see a website that sits outside of the mainstream media and is prepared to dig that little more to uncover the truth.

    We live in a time of our lives where nothing is what it seems.

    Great to see Morning Money Australia awake and aware!


  100. Keep writing rubbish and one day you might accidently get one right, but today is not the day.
    If you did some homework before you started drooling over your keyboard you would discover that the banks were presented with the cheapest source of funds that they would see in their lifetimes and some took advantage.
    How do you sleep at night with all these worries spinning around inside your head.

  101. Yes Damon, But ask yourself, why did the banks need those funds in the first place…ohhhh yeah…it was for the directors bonuses…

  102. Secret loans from the US Fed – not made public – along with dozens of other secret loans to prop up the world banking system.
    Some of the responses ignore these facts and choose to criticse the message from this article.
    Good job in publising this. No matter what people read, see, hear, they will not wake up. Bet they would rather believe what Julia Gillard, Obama, etc says.

  103. Good article and absolutely correct…However, you failed to mention the US Federal Reserve is a Private Company. With Private bank shareholders, like the Bank of Scotland..

  104. I’m a little concerned at the style of writing you used to convey your message as it was very imformal and therefore made it hard to disect your opinion from your facts. As well if they were secret loans, how did you manage to find them. Further more why would it matter if we borrowed money from america, its not a toxic debt owed to us that we cant get paid back. If you look carefully at the banks you can tell alot of their finance comes from overseas, thats why its hard for them to pass on a rate cut from the Reserve bank of australia. So the question is where is all this money coming from, why do we need so much outside funds (does that mean we run off too much credit). In the end who is making money from the top down and why is the system so complex, because money was meant to be a symbol of work and here we have all these intelligent people wasting thier skills on moving money, what value have they actually created. Banks as we know it are quite ridiculous.

  105. At risk of sounding like a crazed conspiracy theorist I’d like to add.
    Nathan asked “where does the money come from?”. pretty much explains that it all comes from thin air. It seems that there is 2 economies, the one where we the people earn money from time working somewhere with material objects and the other the banking economy which makes money from thin air and then uses it to take our earned money off us via loans, the stock market, hedge funds etc.
    And Kris since the big banks, most politicians and the mainstream media all belong in the same club (Bilderberg) it is not at all surprising that we hear only what they want us to.
    What surprises me is that snippets of the real events behind the scenes sometimes leak out to us sheep. Praise the internet!

    Crazed Conspiracy Theorist

  106. About the Australian Bailouts, I would like to know how big this was,with West Pac & Nab getting around 6.4 Billion dollars from the US Federal Reserve, then the 42+Billion “Stimulus Package” of the Rudd Government, Wayne Swans up to 15 Billion to save smaller deposit taking constitutions, Joe Hockey’s 9 Billion gift to the RBA for “reserves” that sort of total is around 70 Billion dollars. That is the same as the black hole that Hockey is talking about where we all have to do the heavy lifting!
    Add to this the feeding frenzy in the selling off of people’s mortgages,called securitisation of RMBS also CBMS CDOs & not informing borrowers, and other strategies, this seems to be an act of desperation, getting rid of liabilities to the banks, preparing for the next big financial thing? What as mess lets have a Public Bank” and politicians like Ben Chiffley!

  107. You are a bullshit artist, 1 billion the shareholders would have come up with 10 times that if asked as they did for other banks, total fucking crap artist dumb bullshit commie dumb arse fuckwit article

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